Commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta by Nagarjuna

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DooDoot
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Re: Commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta by Nagarjuna

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 02, 2018 11:22 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:35 am
Look a little deeper.
I am looking deeper within the Pali because the translation is not found within the heart. I know nothing much about grammar, let alone Pali, but have found the following, starting with the relevant sutta passage:
SN.ii.17 (˚añ c˚ eva natthitañ ca to be and not to be);
atthi
as + a + ti
to be; to exist.
present tense Ind. 1st singular. asmi

asmi
(I am) see atthi.

Snp.1120 Jiṇṇo ham asmi abalo vītavaṇṇo I am old, without strength, with poor complexion :tongue:

Snp.1143 Sa tena teneva nato ham asmi it is that very place that I am inclined
■ 3rd sg. atthi

Snp.377, Na catthi tulyo nipuṇatthadassī,

Snp.672,

Snp.884 Ekañhi saccaṃ na dutīyamatthi Indeed the truth is one, there’s not another

Na koci bālo samaṇesu atthi Then there are no fools among the ascetics
My guess looking at the hieroglyphics above is "atthi" is a word in the 3rd person rather than in the 1st person thus it refers to "the world" (rather than to "myself"). The term "the world" ("loko") does not necessarily mean the physical world or Planet Earth but the world of Dependently Arisen self-views of "beings" ("satta"), as found in SN 12.44, which says:
The Blessed One said: "And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging. From clinging as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world (lokassa).

SN 12.44
Therefore, I am going to translate the sutta with the following meaning so it flows with a consistent theme about self-views:
This world [of "beings" constructed from self-views], Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality — upon the notion it has existence and the notion of it has nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to a world [of beings constructed from self-views]. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world [of "beings constructed from self-views"].

This world, Kaccana, is for the most part shackled by engagement, clinging and adherence. But this one with right view does not become engaged and cling through that engagement and clinging, mental standpoint, adherence, underlying tendency; he does not take a stand about ‘my self.’ He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing. His knowledge about this is independent of others.

It is in this way, Kaccana, that there is right view. “‘All [beings of the world] exist’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All [beings of the world] doe not exist’: this is the second extreme.

Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle: ‘With ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness…. bhava (being) ... jati... etc... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness…. cessation of bhava (cessation of being)... cessation of jati (cessation of beings/satta)... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering.

SN 12.15
In the suttas, this whole passage is also found in SN 12.90, where a certain aspiring bhikkhu was struggling with views of self, as follows:
Then it occurred to the Venerable Channa: “I too think in this way: ‘Form is impermanent … consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself … consciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself.’ But my mind does not launch out upon the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all acquisitions, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna; nor does it acquire confidence, settle down, and resolve on it. Instead, agitation and clinging arise and the mind turns back, thinking: ‘But who is my self?’ But such does not happen to one who sees the Dhamma.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/sn22.90
I think the whole sutta must be about self-views (rather than about the existence & non-existence of rocks, trees & planets, as the Nagarjunarians appear to focus on). Thus, as I posted, I think the term "the world" refers to imputing self-views (of ego; persons, beings, etc) upon the world.

:yingyang: :smile:

Saengnapha
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Re: Commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta by Nagarjuna

Post by Saengnapha » Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:22 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:35 am
Look a little deeper.
I am looking deeper within the Pali because the translation is not found within the heart. I know nothing much about grammar, let alone Pali, but have found the following, starting with the relevant sutta passage:
Try looking deeper at your own being for a start to get a feel for life without words and meanings. All of this is a refutation of views, all views, that includes Buddhist views. That is the beauty of negation and of Nagarjuna. Men like him even negate their own words and views.

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DooDoot
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Re: Commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta by Nagarjuna

Post by DooDoot » Wed May 02, 2018 11:50 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am
Try looking deeper at your own being for a start to get a feel for life without words and meanings.
The idea of "your own being" is totally opposite & contrary to Buddhism.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am
All of this is a refutation of views, all views, that includes Buddhist views.
The above is not for when the Dhamma has not been penetrated. Regardless, nothing to do with Buddhism.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am
That is the beauty of negation and of Nagarjuna. Men like him even negate their own words and views.
There is only elements, aggregates & sense objects. No men, no own. Please. Give up the self-views. Everything written in the Kaccānagotta Sutta is being ignored & the opposite occurring, namely, the negation of not-self and the assertion of self (Atman). :alien:

Saengnapha
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Re: Commentary on the Kaccānagotta Sutta by Nagarjuna

Post by Saengnapha » Wed May 02, 2018 3:47 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:50 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am
Try looking deeper at your own being for a start to get a feel for life without words and meanings.
The idea of "your own being" is totally opposite & contrary to Buddhism.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am
All of this is a refutation of views, all views, that includes Buddhist views.
The above is not for when the Dhamma has not been penetrated. Regardless, nothing to do with Buddhism.
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 11:40 am
That is the beauty of negation and of Nagarjuna. Men like him even negate their own words and views.
There is only elements, aggregates & sense objects. No men, no own. Please. Give up the self-views. Everything written in the Kaccānagotta Sutta is being ignored & the opposite occurring, namely, the negation of not-self and the assertion of self (Atman). :alien:
Yes, yes. Try to get past the words, Doo Doot. Then your comparative mind might stop. Might is the operative word. :)

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