Why are we trying to protect religion?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by SarathW » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:04 pm

Why are we trying to protect religion?
I just wondered why billions of people are trying to protect their religion.
Some people even take weapons to protect their religion.
As Buddhist, we also are trying to protect our religion in various ways.
What is your reason to protect Buddhism, not other religions?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:14 pm

I guess if people are trying to protect their religion, most of them are doing it because they find their religion to be wholesome and valuable to them. A bit like trying to protect their health, or their natural environment, or their cultural heritage. It's a good thing.

Things get nasty, however, when that protection tips over into rigid identification, such that people see their religion as being necessary to sustain the idea they have of themselves. That's when they try to shut down criticism, or to ban alternative viewpoints. "Protection" can mean sustaining and cherishing, or it can mean aggression towards those who do not conform.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Crazy cloud » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:19 pm

Basic insecurity in beliefs.
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:34 pm

I don't try to protect Buddhism. The Buddha said it will eventually dissappear, and then another Buddha will come along. It's a natural thing, so I let it go.
Clinging to "Buddhism" just creates suffering, or so I have experienced.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I feel.

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:04 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:34 pm
I don't try to protect Buddhism. The Buddha said it will eventually dissappear, and then another Buddha will come along. It's a natural thing, so I let it go.
Clinging to "Buddhism" just creates suffering, or so I have experienced.
Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I feel.
:goodpost:

Well put! There are many who could learn from this. :anjali:

Saengnapha
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:46 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:14 pm
I guess if people are trying to protect their religion, most of them are doing it because they find their religion to be wholesome and valuable to them. A bit like trying to protect their health, or their natural environment, or their cultural heritage. It's a good thing.

Things get nasty, however, when that protection tips over into rigid identification, such that people see their religion as being necessary to sustain the idea they have of themselves. That's when they try to shut down criticism, or to ban alternative viewpoints. "Protection" can mean sustaining and cherishing, or it can mean aggression towards those who do not conform.
The notion of good and needing protection are itself the seeds of grief and stress. This represents a self-view trying to sustain and advance itself.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:49 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:46 am

The notion of good and needing protection are itself the seeds of grief and stress. This represents a self-view trying to sustain and advance itself.
This sounds like pseudo-profundity, I'm afraid. Living in the real world, I'm trying to eat good food, be a good parent and husband, and get my car serviced by a good mechanic. I'm trying to do good rather than harm to the people I meet. If one is doing anything - including posting one's views here on DW - then my view is that one ought to try to do it well. For this, I've found the notion of good to be indispensible.

Saengnapha
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:47 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:49 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:46 am

The notion of good and needing protection are itself the seeds of grief and stress. This represents a self-view trying to sustain and advance itself.
This sounds like pseudo-profundity, I'm afraid. Living in the real world, I'm trying to eat good food, be a good parent and husband, and get my car serviced by a good mechanic. I'm trying to do good rather than harm to the people I meet. If one is doing anything - including posting one's views here on DW - then my view is that one ought to try to do it well. For this, I've found the notion of good to be indispensible.
This is what you have been taught and told to do. It is a conditioned response to life circumstances still caught in dualities for self-enhancement. I'm not blaming you or judging you. I'm only telling it like it is. Every religion tells you to do good. This doesn't mean you can do bad things or should do bad things and it doesn't matter. If you drop the idea of being good, does that mean you are its opposite? No. It means you begin to act in accordance with a situation and what it demands. That is free of fear and morality. You don't need religion to be free. If you are trying to be this or that, you are caught in the demand that these ideals make you conform to. It is fear that keeps this way of thinking going. I hope you can follow my logic.

chownah
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by chownah » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:00 pm

I think that sam vara is talking about relative existence using relative truths....just like most people do most of the time.....it reminds me of right view with remainder.....where most of us spend most of our time....
chownah

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:47 am
If you are trying to be this or that, you are caught in the demand that these ideals make you conform to. It is fear that keeps this way of thinking going. I hope you can follow my logic.
Of course I can follow your logic - it's not particularly profound. It appears to be no more than your usual Krishnamurti paraphrasing of what you heard elsewhere. While I continue to have fear, I will continue to think like this. Me, I fear that my children will come to harm, that I will have a hard time in the future; so I take whatever steps I can to prevent this from happening.

You might note that while you are advising me of the way things really are (for example, that you don't need religion to be free) you are advocating that one form of words or advice is better than another form of words or advice (i.e. that you do need religion to be free). The fact that you think one form of advice or account of reality is better than another, you are implicitly favouring your own conception of the good.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm

chownah wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:00 pm
I think that sam vara is talking about relative existence using relative truths....just like most people do most of the time.....it reminds me of right view with remainder.....where most of us spend most of our time....
chownah
Yes, that's absolutely correct - thanks!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:29 pm

my name means dhamma protector. i like to keep the dhamma alive because it benefits me and it benefits others. it is a lighthouse in a vast darkness. why wouldn't i?
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Saengnapha
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:32 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:47 am
If you are trying to be this or that, you are caught in the demand that these ideals make you conform to. It is fear that keeps this way of thinking going. I hope you can follow my logic.
Of course I can follow your logic - it's not particularly profound. It appears to be no more than your usual Krishnamurti paraphrasing of what you heard elsewhere. While I continue to have fear, I will continue to think like this. Me, I fear that my children will come to harm, that I will have a hard time in the future; so I take whatever steps I can to prevent this from happening.

You might note that while you are advising me of the way things really are (for example, that you don't need religion to be free) you are advocating that one form of words or advice is better than another form of words or advice (i.e. that you do need religion to be free). The fact that you think one form of advice or account of reality is better than another, you are implicitly favouring your own conception of the good.
Why do you denigrate JK and my approach which happens to be similar? Is this a wrong view? Is this what I said not factual? There is nothing that either of us can say that is going to be new and unique. It's all been hashed about endlessly over the centuries. That is my point. What I am 'advising' you about is the logic that you don't want to really look at. It is not about you 'worrying' about your future or anyone else's. You do what is best in any given situation. You don't need an arsenal of do's and don'ts that you call upon to decide everything. In other words, you have to get past the words and your own thinking, otherwise, there is fault at every turn, and fear that rules your life. The profound is quite simple and immediate.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:18 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:32 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:47 am
If you are trying to be this or that, you are caught in the demand that these ideals make you conform to. It is fear that keeps this way of thinking going. I hope you can follow my logic.
Of course I can follow your logic - it's not particularly profound. It appears to be no more than your usual Krishnamurti paraphrasing of what you heard elsewhere. While I continue to have fear, I will continue to think like this. Me, I fear that my children will come to harm, that I will have a hard time in the future; so I take whatever steps I can to prevent this from happening.

You might note that while you are advising me of the way things really are (for example, that you don't need religion to be free) you are advocating that one form of words or advice is better than another form of words or advice (i.e. that you do need religion to be free). The fact that you think one form of advice or account of reality is better than another, you are implicitly favouring your own conception of the good.
Why do you denigrate JK and my approach which happens to be similar? Is this a wrong view? Is this what I said not factual? There is nothing that either of us can say that is going to be new and unique. It's all been hashed about endlessly over the centuries. That is my point. What I am 'advising' you about is the logic that you don't want to really look at. It is not about you 'worrying' about your future or anyone else's. You do what is best in any given situation. You don't need an arsenal of do's and don'ts that you call upon to decide everything. In other words, you have to get past the words and your own thinking, otherwise, there is fault at every turn, and fear that rules your life. The profound is quite simple and immediate.
I'm not denigrating anything, merely pointing out that your point isn't as difficult to understand as you seem to think. Nor is there anything that I "don't want to look at" here. You might not want to talk about worrying about the future, but if someone does, then what you are saying has little application. That's not to say that fear rules one's life, but that a sensible person acknowledges that there are qualitatively better and worse outcomes from one's actions, and works to obtain the former.

If you were able to practice what you preach (or claim to not preach, according to circumstances!) then you would presumably be blithely unconcerned about possible denigration or other people's views. Surely you don't fear being misunderstood or misrepresented, do you? Anyone might think that you wanted to present arguments in order to be thought profound or in possession of some special way of looking at things.

Saengnapha
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:16 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:18 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:32 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:54 pm


Of course I can follow your logic - it's not particularly profound. It appears to be no more than your usual Krishnamurti paraphrasing of what you heard elsewhere. While I continue to have fear, I will continue to think like this. Me, I fear that my children will come to harm, that I will have a hard time in the future; so I take whatever steps I can to prevent this from happening.

You might note that while you are advising me of the way things really are (for example, that you don't need religion to be free) you are advocating that one form of words or advice is better than another form of words or advice (i.e. that you do need religion to be free). The fact that you think one form of advice or account of reality is better than another, you are implicitly favouring your own conception of the good.
Why do you denigrate JK and my approach which happens to be similar? Is this a wrong view? Is this what I said not factual? There is nothing that either of us can say that is going to be new and unique. It's all been hashed about endlessly over the centuries. That is my point. What I am 'advising' you about is the logic that you don't want to really look at. It is not about you 'worrying' about your future or anyone else's. You do what is best in any given situation. You don't need an arsenal of do's and don'ts that you call upon to decide everything. In other words, you have to get past the words and your own thinking, otherwise, there is fault at every turn, and fear that rules your life. The profound is quite simple and immediate.
I'm not denigrating anything, merely pointing out that your point isn't as difficult to understand as you seem to think. Nor is there anything that I "don't want to look at" here. You might not want to talk about worrying about the future, but if someone does, then what you are saying has little application. That's not to say that fear rules one's life, but that a sensible person acknowledges that there are qualitatively better and worse outcomes from one's actions, and works to obtain the former.

If you were able to practice what you preach (or claim to not preach, according to circumstances!) then you would presumably be blithely unconcerned about possible denigration or other people's views. Surely you don't fear being misunderstood or misrepresented, do you? Anyone might think that you wanted to present arguments in order to be thought profound or in possession of some special way of looking at things.
The thread is about protecting religion. I am trying to point out that what you call 'good' is taught to you by religions and subsequently, we are programmed to act accordingly. This has nothing to do with me and you, personally. I am not advocating any practice or preaching something you should believe in. I don't know why you think this.

JK was one of the few 'philosophers' that challenged the authority of religions that have ruled mankind. Trying to protect religion is the same continuation of a self trying to become the image it so earnestly seeks.

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