Why are we trying to protect religion?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Saengnapha
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:49 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:42 am

Clinging to beliefs and sensibility are often equated, but they are not the same.
Not in the English-speaking world. "Sensibility" is not the quality of being sensible in that sense, but is something else entirely. It means "sensitivity", or the capacity to respond to stimuli, as in the Jane Austen novel Sense and Sensibility.
If there is to be some kind of deep realization of the way things are, this is not sufficient. It is only the factual that is sensible. Hoping that the conventional is going to lead somewhere where there is happiness and satisfaction is an illusion.
My original post on this thread was not about this. It was about why people protect religion, not about the insufficiency of religion.

Your point about the insufficiency of religion is another matter entirely. My point is that the conventional does lead to happiness and satisfaction, at least in relative and temporal terms; and that anyone who has not seen this has the wrong conception of appropriate convention.
Threads often warp into other areas from the original topic. I believe my posts are related to the question of protection of religion.
If Buddhism were about the conventional leading to happiness and satisfaction, it would have not gotten much traction after the Buddha disappeared. But, that is not really the message of the Buddha or any other religion that I am aware of. From what I understand, Theravada does not associate the conventional with happiness and satisfaction. That would contradict the 3 Marks of Existence. Perhaps your choice of words was not the best.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:36 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 am

Threads often warp into other areas from the original topic. I believe my posts are related to the question of protection of religion.
If Buddhism were about the conventional leading to happiness and satisfaction, it would have not gotten much traction after the Buddha disappeared. But, that is not really the message of the Buddha or any other religion that I am aware of. From what I understand, Theravada does not associate the conventional with happiness and satisfaction. That would contradict the 3 Marks of Existence. Perhaps your choice of words was not the best.
Of course, threads change. But look at what this one is about. It asks why people try to protect religion. That's a straightforward empirical or psychological question, just like "Why do people like dogs?" or "Why do we tend to think in terms of nationalities?"

To address this question by saying "Ah, yes, but dogs won't really take us to the transcendent, will they?" or "Nation States are merely conventions" is one of those positions that Ajahn Chah described as "True but not right". It might well be true, but it's really just shoe-horning a trope into a discussion where it doesn't contribute anything. This is especially evident when you yourself don't understand what it means. Hence my point about pseudo-profundity. If you yourself don't know what it means, it's just another received opinion.

Saengnapha
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:36 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:19 am

Threads often warp into other areas from the original topic. I believe my posts are related to the question of protection of religion.
If Buddhism were about the conventional leading to happiness and satisfaction, it would have not gotten much traction after the Buddha disappeared. But, that is not really the message of the Buddha or any other religion that I am aware of. From what I understand, Theravada does not associate the conventional with happiness and satisfaction. That would contradict the 3 Marks of Existence. Perhaps your choice of words was not the best.
Of course, threads change. But look at what this one is about. It asks why people try to protect religion. That's a straightforward empirical or psychological question, just like "Why do people like dogs?" or "Why do we tend to think in terms of nationalities?"

To address this question by saying "Ah, yes, but dogs won't really take us to the transcendent, will they?" or "Nation States are merely conventions" is one of those positions that Ajahn Chah described as "True but not right". It might well be true, but it's really just shoe-horning a trope into a discussion where it doesn't contribute anything. This is especially evident when you yourself don't understand what it means. Hence my point about pseudo-profundity. If you yourself don't know what it means, it's just another received opinion.
What do you mean by 'contribute'? How am I not contributing to this discussion by giving you some things to mull over? If you don't agree with them, that is different. You haven't pointed out anything that I've said that I would take back.

I still don't understand what you are saying about the conventional giving happiness and satisfaction. You didn't address this at all except to point out my wrong position. Is something true not a fact? I'm not even sure about why are talking about profundity. Did I say anything about my posts being profound? Don't understand your antagonism.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:46 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am

What do you mean by 'contribute'? How am I not contributing to this discussion by giving you some things to mull over? If you don't agree with them, that is different. You haven't pointed out anything that I've said that I would take back.

I still don't understand what you are saying about the conventional giving happiness and satisfaction. You didn't address this at all except to point out my wrong position. Is something true not a fact? I'm not even sure about why are talking about profundity. Did I say anything about my posts being profound? Don't understand your antagonism.
By "contribute", I mean to post a comment that is more than an all-purpose trope that the poster does not even understand; one that is "True and right".

Saengnapha
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:09 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:46 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am

What do you mean by 'contribute'? How am I not contributing to this discussion by giving you some things to mull over? If you don't agree with them, that is different. You haven't pointed out anything that I've said that I would take back.

I still don't understand what you are saying about the conventional giving happiness and satisfaction. You didn't address this at all except to point out my wrong position. Is something true not a fact? I'm not even sure about why are talking about profundity. Did I say anything about my posts being profound? Don't understand your antagonism.
By "contribute", I mean to post a comment that is more than an all-purpose trope that the poster does not even understand; one that is "True and right".
Good luck with that.

SarathW
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Re: Why are we trying to protect religion?

Post by SarathW » Sun May 13, 2018 7:33 am

I think what people are trying to protect is strong views.
What really matters is whether they are right views or wrong views.
Even as Buddhist some of us have the wrong views due to not fully comprehending the Buddha's teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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