J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Saengnapha
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am

An excellent quote, Crazy Cloud. This is it in a nutshell, but this is so radical and unacceptable to our mind that we turn to 'something' to save us because that is part of the mind's conditioning. This is why UG constantly harped on the fact that there was nothing one could do to bring this about because all action and thought is conditioned by the past and only leads to more of the same. Then, he said, there might be a chance for this great event in nature to take place, that wipes you clean of all psychological suffering and identification with a self, the natural state of man. This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.

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mikenz66
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:40 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.
Do you know this from experience?

:heart:
Mike

Saengnapha
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:05 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:40 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.
Do you know this from experience?

:heart:
Mike
No, but I saw it in UG, who basically said the same thing and walked the walk for 40 years.

chownah
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by chownah » Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:39 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done.
I think that the buddha teaches just a bit differently. I think that there is ALWAYS nothing to be done and that the buddha teaches that the process stops permanently when one fully realizes that there is no one who is doing.
chownah

Saengnapha
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:29 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:39 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done.
I think that the buddha teaches just a bit differently. I think that there is ALWAYS nothing to be done and that the buddha teaches that the process stops permanently when one fully realizes that there is no one who is doing.
chownah
same, same, IMO.

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mikenz66
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:40 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:05 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:40 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.
Do you know this from experience?

:heart:
Mike
No, but I saw it in UG, who basically said the same thing and walked the walk for 40 years.
OK. Clearly I have no idea whether the Ks, or any other teachers, had any real attainment. If you had a chance to observe one of them you may have a better idea than the rest of us. Or you may have just been persuaded by a charismatic person. I cannot judge that.

All that the rest of us have are the writings. I know from discussions with various people over the years that some find those writings very useful, and some don't find them particularly special. As with any other teacher (Buddhist or not) I think it is important to respect the fact that some will find their teaching useful, some not, and not demand that everyone to agree that the Ks are the pinnacle of spiritual teaching, or even that they are particularly important.

:heart:
Mike

Saengnapha
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Apr 07, 2018 6:00 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:40 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:05 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 9:40 pm

Do you know this from experience?

:heart:
Mike
No, but I saw it in UG, who basically said the same thing and walked the walk for 40 years.
OK. Clearly I have no idea whether the Ks, or any other teachers, had any real attainment. If you had a chance to observe one of them you may have a better idea than the rest of us. Or you may have just been persuaded by a charismatic person. I cannot judge that.

All that the rest of us have are the writings. I know from discussions with various people over the years that some find those writings very useful, and some don't find them particularly special. As with any other teacher (Buddhist or not) I think it is important to respect the fact that some will find their teaching useful, some not, and not demand that everyone to agree that the Ks are the pinnacle of spiritual teaching, or even that they are particularly important.

:heart:
Mike
It seems clear that agreement across the board is not happening. For me, the K's are the clearest expression I've ever heard. This doesn't mean that there are not other expressions that are not useful to others. They also spoke in a language, English, that is understood by all English speakers, and not put through the filters of translation and personal interpretations, that have changed over thousands of years. In any case, it is quite a different experience to be around someone like this who exhibits none of the psychological problems that we are faced with on a day to day basis. The energy around someone like this is different. And yes, there is certainly the danger of persuasion by a charismatic person, but that person wants something from you. I never felt that about the K's, UG in particular. The disinterest was palpable.

auto
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Sun Apr 08, 2018 12:50 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:55 am
rest in unknowing
The mind itself must become the unknown
To receive the unknown, the mind itself must become the unknown. The mind is the result of the thought process, the result of time, and this thought process must come to an end. The mind cannot think of that which is eternal, timeless; therefore, the mind must be free of time, the time process of the mind must be dissolved. Only when the mind is completely free from yesterday, and is therefore not using the present as a means to the future, is it capable of receiving the eternal. That which is known has no relationship with the unknown; therefore, you cannot pray to the unknown, you cannot concentrate on the unknown, you cannot be devoted to the unknown. All that has no meaning. What has meaning is to find out how the mind operates, it is to see yourself in action.
Therefore, our concern in meditation is to know oneself not only superficially, but the whole content of the inner, hidden consciousness. Without knowing all that and being free of its conditioning, you cannot possibly go beyond the mind's limits. That is why the thought process must cease and, for this cessation, there must be knowledge of oneself. Therefore, meditation is the beginning of wisdom, which is the understanding of one's own mind and heart.

Collected Works, Vol. V,165
"mind cannot think of that what is eternal"
i can't think about i don't exist anymore. But i know that i become unconscious without notice and then come aware and notice that i was not aware.

"there must be knowledge of oneself"
so if i come aware, it is like a lucid dream. I know that i am aware and was sleeping before.

That is where everything is useless and nothing to do. I keep losing awareness and coming aware and that's what i do. That is heart beating, a channel in body.
It stops at some point when there comes a smooth wavelike energy, it moves and i can focus on that. I then doesn't need notice. The difference is that before when i come aware and notice i am aware i return something to body so if it is full its this water like floating energy.
Then i can get access to specific place in body and apply pressure or whatever else at other times, using that water.

"..you cannot possibly go beyond the mind's limits"
for an example there is cavity at the end of breath in belly, in order to drop into there, cultivation needed and substance.( at least for start if channels locked)
------
if i would read what JK tells and would be internested to make progress, i need get a sense in my mind what he talks so i try it in meditation to make it happen.
So what i do is find the most crucial points and then try not make mistakes. Even when he tells there isn't any rules, precepts <-- that is a rule or precept.
And i am also consciously searching if there is even more crucial points what make the smaller points optional as long i follow the big rules.

Otherwise peeps just get nice feelings from JK controversial topics and think that is it?

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Crazy cloud
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:35 pm

Let the mind cease slowly - stand still and let the body find it's natural balance, and when it's holding it self by itself let it move, - and find that "you" are just moving without the self doing anything, just a mindful move in the right direction ...

Like all meditation actually is

My take on doing the training, - and one has discovered how powerful standing and walking meditation is for the whole process called "meditation"
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

auto
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:57 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
An excellent quote, Crazy Cloud. This is it in a nutshell, but this is so radical and unacceptable to our mind that we turn to 'something' to save us because that is part of the mind's conditioning. This is why UG constantly harped on the fact that there was nothing one could do to bring this about because all action and thought is conditioned by the past and only leads to more of the same. Then, he said, there might be a chance for this great event in nature to take place, that wipes you clean of all psychological suffering and identification with a self, the natural state of man. This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.
the sentence "the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed" every time i read i get a picture of wooden carcass frame of a building. How then i could know the meaning of this sentence?
so i will remove that consciousness what holds that image. So i don't imagine anything and if i read that sentence i don't get anything, i then notice that i read the words and my tongue is moving if i don't use tongue and only use eyes looking at the text then it is not reading anymore.

So if i read the sentence i am using tongue to stir the meaning. So basically the no path, doing nothing means you don't use tongue. But you can think about things without tongue then eyes will move side to side but for that i need have a theme in my mind, its like dreaming.

It is possible to read without thinking mind and notice what arises and use that as object of consciousness. But for that i need be in the body and use willpower. It is just using channel what isn't tongue.
---
"This process permanently stops"

its you don't use this channel and instead use another. If you get to lower sensual organ you don't cling to what is on world, when you feel your organ it starts live, basically you don't need go through worldly process of initiation. Then before it was self awareness then instead now you drink liquid to fill the belly.

auto
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Sun Apr 08, 2018 3:24 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:35 pm
Let the mind cease slowly - stand still and let the body find it's natural balance, and when it's holding it self by itself let it move, - and find that "you" are just moving without the self doing anything, just a mindful move in the right direction ...

Like all meditation actually is

My take on doing the training, - and one has discovered how powerful standing and walking meditation is for the whole process called "meditation"
Sitting, standing, walking and lying down.
There is an order, the samadhi you can do only on sitting, then later you can do it standing, then walking and later during leisure time.

Also when different life situations and places you visit regularly you will come self-aware on these places what you have been usually unaware. Then you can remember and have perception and can get a feeling in body. That feeling is connected to becoming, without that feeling you won't stop your going out. How you stop is you hear or get to know about upcoming event, you then can feel the aura of craving and recognize it and see that it leads to mishappenings, aversion, suffering and can then delete it. Later also you do it with the food too you crave for food and that feeling of craving you recognize and delete it.

Saengnapha
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:37 am

auto wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:57 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
An excellent quote, Crazy Cloud. This is it in a nutshell, but this is so radical and unacceptable to our mind that we turn to 'something' to save us because that is part of the mind's conditioning. This is why UG constantly harped on the fact that there was nothing one could do to bring this about because all action and thought is conditioned by the past and only leads to more of the same. Then, he said, there might be a chance for this great event in nature to take place, that wipes you clean of all psychological suffering and identification with a self, the natural state of man. This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.
the sentence "the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed" every time i read i get a picture of wooden carcass frame of a building. How then i could know the meaning of this sentence?
so i will remove that consciousness what holds that image. So i don't imagine anything and if i read that sentence i don't get anything, i then notice that i read the words and my tongue is moving if i don't use tongue and only use eyes looking at the text then it is not reading anymore.

So if i read the sentence i am using tongue to stir the meaning. So basically the no path, doing nothing means you don't use tongue. But you can think about things without tongue then eyes will move side to side but for that i need have a theme in my mind, its like dreaming.

It is possible to read without thinking mind and notice what arises and use that as object of consciousness. But for that i need be in the body and use willpower. It is just using channel what isn't tongue.
---
"This process permanently stops"

its you don't use this channel and instead use another. If you get to lower sensual organ you don't cling to what is on world, when you feel your organ it starts live, basically you don't need go through worldly process of initiation. Then before it was self awareness then instead now you drink liquid to fill the belly.
I think it is a lot simpler than you are making it out to be. Too much thinking and analysis.

auto
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:30 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:37 am
I think it is a lot simpler than you are making it out to be. Too much thinking and analysis.
For an example in case of optical illusions you can use eyes various ways but there still will be a default mode where you go back after using different mode of seeing, that is natural state.
Or you are drunk and after certain time when you don't drink more you will click and become sober. So the being sober is natural state, you go back there effortlessly when you stop adding fuel.

So there are precepts for a reason, things expire and you experience natural state what is not natural state of an ordinary man.

On a broad perspective a man whatever it does is still a man, but if to act like a fly, then after your body is gone you will relax into state of fly or and end up as an incect body.

auto
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:41 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:21 am
Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:08 am
I wonder about how much time critics has put themselves "standing under" JK thoughts before concluding/judging?
I think it's a very good point, Crazy cloud. In my case, I read his books for 3-4 years trying to understand what he was saying and then, one day, my eyes opened widely, unexpectedly, and decisively, amidst an internal crisis I had been struggling with all my life.
Do JK has some kind of path model, like x number of nanas what contemplatives circle?
I see even my dog circle regularly between different moods. So its a valid argument.

I understand the spontaneous nature of realizations, but it doesn't mean there is no path, it can mean there is no immediate result of your decision or action. A bad state what we experience could be because of past decision. I can't let go or forget thoughts solely because they are past, these thoughts are because of past actions.

auto
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:07 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 am
An excellent quote, Crazy Cloud. This is it in a nutshell, but this is so radical and unacceptable to our mind that we turn to 'something' to save us because that is part of the mind's conditioning. This is why UG constantly harped on the fact that there was nothing one could do to bring this about because all action and thought is conditioned by the past and only leads to more of the same. Then, he said, there might be a chance for this great event in nature to take place, that wipes you clean of all psychological suffering and identification with a self, the natural state of man. This so called knowledge of oneself is not some kind of mystery to be solved. It is the seeing of what you call yourself and how it is constructed. This process permanently stops when there is nothing to be done. It is not even imaginable.
---
This is why UG constantly harped on the fact that there was nothing one could do to bring this about because all action and thought is conditioned by the past and only leads to more of the same.
unless you use will power, because you use then fresh thoughts what are not past. Why even use past and future, since when you don't use will power you "sleep" your mind is in heart or body, if you use will power you use head and need watch were you step, hence there is a path you actually need to learn to step on.

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