J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:58 am

auto wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:34 am
A quote up there...,
But,
you can't mix things when they have evolved too far from common ancestor. So two groups won't mix, there have been a schism in the past what doesn't allow it.
So that quote seem more like wishful thinking about lets get along now and there won't be any wars, no politics needed etc. More quotes like these and there is a change that JK was good public speaker and not a meditator.
How well do you know his thoughts and how much time did it take to understand it enough?

And please don't meta discuss this by " A quote up there...,
But,", it's to sloppy if you like to have a debate where there could arise some "learing", and maybe both ways ..
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

chownah
Posts: 7550
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by chownah » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:07 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:00 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:17 am
When you call yourself blah blah blah you are being violent? This is nonsense. I think it shows that it he was correct to not establish any teaching or doctrine.
chownah
Foolish comments, chownah. Time to give up your anger and sarcasm.
Foolish comments, saengnapha. I'm neither angry nor being sarcastic.
Also foolish because because labeling is not a violent act and so labeling your self blah, blah, or blah does not mean you are being violent. Duh. Maybe you don't know what violence is?
It might be that my "to not establish a teaching or doctrine?" is incorrect, however. Didn't he declare to not have a teaching and not having established a doctrine......it has just occurred to me that I may be thinking of the wrong krishnamurti. Is this the one that you spent alot of time with?
chownah

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:59 pm

Violence starts with thinking and responding on: I am here and you are there!

Should be quite easy to get
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

chownah
Posts: 7550
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by chownah » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:22 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:59 pm
Violence starts with thinking and responding on: I am here and you are there!

Should be quite easy to get
Maybe you are violent when you think and respond on that.....but I am not.
chownah

auto
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:33 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:58 am
auto wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:34 am
A quote up there...,
But,
you can't mix things when they have evolved too far from common ancestor. So two groups won't mix, there have been a schism in the past what doesn't allow it.
So that quote seem more like wishful thinking about lets get along now and there won't be any wars, no politics needed etc. More quotes like these and there is a change that JK was good public speaker and not a meditator.
How well do you know his thoughts and how much time did it take to understand it enough?

And please don't meta discuss this by " A quote up there...,
But,", it's to sloppy if you like to have a debate where there could arise some "learing", and maybe both ways ..
His facial hair approve that he will make no exceptions in regards to his policy of anyone whoever dares to call himself european because he lives in europe shall be beheaded. Long Mustache found its way to his mouth and dared to become food.

auto
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:11 pm

http://jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-t ... meditation
We were saying yesterday that the future of man is at stake, and that man has no existence in isolation - isolation as a nation, isolation as a group, isolation in religion, isolation as an individual and isolation in consciousness...
http://jkrishnamurti.org/about-krishnam ... graphy.php
Jiddu Krishnamurti was born on 11 May 1895 in Madanapalle, a small town in south India. He and his brother were adopted in their youth by Dr Annie Besant, then president of the Theosophical Society. Dr Besant and others proclaimed that Krishnamurti was to be a world teacher whose coming the Theosophists had predicted. To prepare the world for this coming, a world-wide organization called the Order of the Star in the East was formed and the young Krishnamurti was made its head.
Wouldn't he already be brainwashed before he grew up to start express "his" thoughts?..

Is his teachings following the ideal of Annie Besant?

User avatar
aflatun
Posts: 814
Joined: Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:40 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by aflatun » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:17 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:12 am
...
DId you ever discuss JK with UG? As I recall (youtube of course) UG voiced some scathing criticisms of JK. I'm curious what he might have said in conversation with you, if you feel comfortable sharing of course.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

chownah
Posts: 7550
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by chownah » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:39 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:07 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:00 am
chownah wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:17 am
When you call yourself blah blah blah you are being violent? This is nonsense. I think it shows that it he was correct to not establish any teaching or doctrine.
chownah
Foolish comments, chownah. Time to give up your anger and sarcasm.
Foolish comments, saengnapha. I'm neither angry nor being sarcastic.
Also foolish because because labeling is not a violent act and so labeling your self blah, blah, or blah does not mean you are being violent. Duh. Maybe you don't know what violence is?
It might be that my "to not establish a teaching or doctrine?" is incorrect, however. Didn't he declare to not have a teaching and not having established a doctrine......it has just occurred to me that I may be thinking of the wrong krishnamurti. Is this the one that you spent alot of time with?
chownah
Yes, I see now that I have confused ugk for jk....sorry about that...so my "no teaching and no doctrine" idea is misplaced.
I still maintain that the view that self labeling is violence is total nonsense.....let's see...."I am an organic farmer"....is that violence? :rolleye:
chownah

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:46 pm

auto wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:33 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:58 am
auto wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:34 am
A quote up there...,
But,
you can't mix things when they have evolved too far from common ancestor. So two groups won't mix, there have been a schism in the past what doesn't allow it.
So that quote seem more like wishful thinking about lets get along now and there won't be any wars, no politics needed etc. More quotes like these and there is a change that JK was good public speaker and not a meditator.
How well do you know his thoughts and how much time did it take to understand it enough?

And please don't meta discuss this by " A quote up there...,
But,", it's to sloppy if you like to have a debate where there could arise some "learing", and maybe both ways ..
His facial hair approve that he will make no exceptions in regards to his policy of anyone whoever dares to call himself european because he lives in europe shall be beheaded. Long Mustache found its way to his mouth and dared to become food.
Image
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:48 pm

chownah wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:22 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:59 pm
Violence starts with thinking and responding on: I am here and you are there!

Should be quite easy to get
Maybe you are violent when you think and respond on that.....but I am not.
chownah
Bodily, verbally and by mind
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:52 pm

aflatun wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:17 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:12 am
...
DId you ever discuss JK with UG? As I recall (youtube of course) UG voiced some scathing criticisms of JK. I'm curious what he might have said in conversation with you, if you feel comfortable sharing of course.
Many times, aflatun. Because of his association with JK, the subject would be brought up by the people who came to visit him. They would ask questions and make statements that UG would directly respond to. On the surface, it would often seem that UG was always criticizing JK's approach. One comment he made was that JK had seen the sugar cube, but never really tasted it. Something like that, you get the drift. UG would always remind people that choiceless awareness was impossible because of the conditioned mind which we all use to observe things. Sometimes he would harangue JK with talk like this and dismiss him as a Victorian bred character. However, UG said if it wasn't for JK, he wouldn't be the man he was. UG's 'calamity' began in the tent in Switzerland while listening to JK talk. I won't elaborate on that as it is too big a subject and it's better to read about it in his own words. He felt JK brought him to a certain point but never talked about 'the natural state' that UG finally lived. JK was like a meditation master, skilled in the ways of the mind and aggregates, showing people the conditioned aspect of their lives. UG, otoh, was a transcendental event. JK touched on this, but UG brought it to life. Perhaps similar to the Buddha with his two gurus who brought him to the formless jhanas, but not to realization of true nature.

One day, UG told me JK had appeared to him when he was alone in his room. I asked him what took place. He said nothing, he just appeared. Most of his responses to JK questions centred around people's fixations on certain aspects of what JK talked about. Sometimes he would laugh, sometimes he would forcefully object to a statement regarding JK. No doubt, he had respect for the man. Even the Dalai Lama upon being told about JK said something like 'we have here a veritable 'Nagarjuna'. OTOH, UG would curse out the Dali Lama!

For me, JK has made more sense, in general, about the state of mankind than any modern thinker that I know of. He has helped revolutionize many of the accepted concepts on religion, belief, as well as what real contemplation is. I would have liked to been able to see JK in a more casual setting, much like visiting UG. All I know of JK is this elderly, austere figure, who seemed to be talking from a place of deep wisdom, filled with an energy that his words conveyed, making the space like a meditation hall. I would have liked to just chit chat with him, much like I used to do with UG. It wasn't always serious and deep. Much of it was very light hearted, simple conversation.

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:46 pm

It's refreshing to read what people thought about him just after his death, and i find it's balancing out a lot of the critics from us who just met him indirectly, in larger or lesser extent
Jiddu Krishnamurti, the Indian philosopher who was proclaimed in his childhood to be the new messiah but then spent almost all his entire adult life denying he was, died Monday at his ranch house home in Ojai, the victim of pancreatic cancer. He was 90 years old.

Erna Lilliefelt, spokeswoman for the Krishnamurti Foundation of America, said death came peacefully at 12:10 a.m. She said the remains would be cremated. No memorial service is planned.

Krishnamurti had been hospitalized briefly after his return in early January from an annual four-month stay in India. Lilliefelt said the cancer was discovered during the hospitalization but doctors concluded it was already terminal.

Almost every year since the 1920s, Krishnamurti had presented a series of talks at an oak grove outside Ojai at which he had insisted he was neither a guru, a sage nor even necessarily a philosopher--only a teacher sharing ideas with anyone who cared to listen. This year's talks were canceled after the initial hospitalization. The foundation said Krishnamurti had expressed a final wish that several schools he founded in the United States, England and India--including one in Ojai--remain in operation but that no one should be named to "carry on with these teachings in my name now or at any time in the future."


Krishnamurti was born in Madras, India, in 1895, the son of a man who was an ardent follower of the Theosophical Society, a cult-like organization popular at the time. As a child, Krishnamurti attracted the attention of Annie Besant, leader of the society, who proclaimed him to be the new messiah who was to preside over the organization disseminating her mixture of Buddhism and Indian Brahmanism.

In 1922, Krishnamurti moved to Ojai, attracted to the Ventura County valley by reports that the air there could cure his younger brother of tuberculosis. Though the brother died, Krishnamurti stayed on, and Besant eventually organized a group called the Order of the Star that was to be Krishnamurti's vehicle for spreading his own gospel.

But in 1929, the young man stunned Besant and a public that had grown accustomed to news media coverage of his teachings and life style, by proclaiming the Order of the Star dissolved. He also renounced the claims about his quasi-divinity. Besant eventually accepted his decision.

Asked for Simple 'Awareness'

Krishnamurti spent the rest of his life living in England, India and California, writing and giving lectures on his philosophy of self-reliance and awareness to such varied groups as scientists at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico and diplomats at the United Nations. Although he spoke against nationalism and the supremacy of one religion over another, Krishnamurti never offered himself as leader for those ideas. He asked that those who listened to him not necessarily "believe" but simply be "aware."

The Krishnamurti Foundation, formed as a structural entity to disseminate books, pamphlets, tapes and other materials, served as financial support for Krishnamurti and his work. The foundation, which last year began preparing for Krishnamurti's passing, will continue in operation to support the Krishnamurti schools and distribute printed and other materials, the foundation said.

Krishnamurti lived modestly and owned little property. His living quarters around the world were in the hands of other people.

'Divinity' Had Become 'Ugly'

Recalling the decision to renounce his proclaimed divinity in an interview with The Times last year, Krishnamurti said: "It had gradually become ugly. If I promised reward, I would have quantities of money . . . great estates. You understand? At one time, I used to have all that when I was quite young. I said it's all wrong."

Despite what he did in 1929, Krishnamurti was dogged most of his life by media accounts that insisted he was some sort of guru, no matter how much he tried to deny it.

Referring to himself in the third person as "the speaker" in most of his public appearances in recent years, Krishnamurti, who never married, told an audience at the annual talks last year to "be skeptical of what the speaker is saying, especially."

"He is not a guru. He doesn't want a thing from you . . . not even your applause. Please be sure of that, so you can relax. Please listen . . . not to the speaker, but to yourself."
http://articles.latimes.com/1986-02-18/ ... ishnamurti
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

auto
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:08 am

http://jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-t ... meditation
We must go into this very carefully because we are trying to understand why human beings live perpetually in conflict, why there is a contradiction - I am, I should be; I am violent, I must become non-violent. The non-violence is an idea, is a concept, is not an actuality, because I am violent. This is a fact, an actuality. The other is non-fact, but we think the pursuit of non-violence will help us to become non-violent, that we will be free from violence. Let us understand the content of that word. What does violence mean? There is physical violence. You shoot with a gun, or you hit, or you throw a bomb, you slap, you injure. That is physical violence. What is psychological violence? - the inward anger, hatred, wanting to dominate people, not only physical domination, but the domination of ideas. I know, you don't know; I will tell you, and you will obey. That is domination. The gurus are violent because they are dominating people with their ideas, with their systems of meditation and all that. Please understand this. We are not attacking gurus. I am just pointing out that psychological dependence, imitation, conformity, domination, all that is inward violence. That is a fact. Can we deal with the fact and not with the idea of the opposite? There is no opposite. Right? There is an opposite as darkness and light, woman and man, tall and short, dark and white, and so on. Inwardly, is there a duality at all? Actually we are asking, `Is there a duality or only `what is''?' There is only `what is', that is, I am violent. Now, is it possible to be free of violence, not to become non-violent? Is this clear? This country has propagated this idea of non-violence. Being violent, they are propagating something which they are not. That means I am gradually, day by day, practising to become that, not to understand violence, but become something which I have called non-violence. Do you see the difference? Hence there is conflict. When I am observing, learning, enquiring into the fact, there is no conflict in my mind. But if my mind is all the time saying, `l must achieve non-violence', then there is conflict. But if I say I am violent, what is the root of violence, what is the nature of violence? I don't condemn it, I observe it.
long quote but helps to understand what he is meaning.
Psychologically, inwardly, there is only the fact. The fact is, one is violent and jealous, and so on.
reminds of external ayatana.
abhidhamma

Bàhiràyatana (six external bases)
1 Råpàyatana – vaõõa – visible object
2 Saddàyatana – sadda – sound
3 Gandhàyatana – gandha – odour
4 Rasàyatana – rasa – taste
5 Phoññhàbbhàyatana – pathavã, tejo, vàyo – tangible object
6 Dhammàyatana – mind-object consisting of 52 cetasikas,
16 sukhuma-råpas and Nibbàna.
he is trying to get peeps to right track where nibbana, peace is.

auto
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:21 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:46 pm
auto wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 1:33 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:58 am


How well do you know his thoughts and how much time did it take to understand it enough?

And please don't meta discuss this by " A quote up there...,
But,", it's to sloppy if you like to have a debate where there could arise some "learing", and maybe both ways ..
His facial hair approve that he will make no exceptions in regards to his policy of anyone whoever dares to call himself european because he lives in europe shall be beheaded. Long Mustache found its way to his mouth and dared to become food.
Image
http://jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-t ... meditation
Audience: Well, sir, you have been talking about radical change for the last 50 years, and obviously there is not any radical change in the world. My question to you, then, is why do you talk?

Krishnamurti: The gentleman asks, you have talked about fundamental change of human consciousness and so on for the last 50 years and obviously there is no change at all. Then the question is, why do you talk? The speaker is not talking for his amusement, for his fulfilment, for his encouragement. If he didn't talk, he would not feel depressed, he would not feel lacking something. Therefore, why do I talk? Have you ever asked why the lotus blooms? Have you, sir? Have you ever asked why a flower blooms, why it has so much beauty, why it has such marvellous colour, the depth and the smell and the glory of a simple flower? Maybe the speaker has been talking about compassion.
Now i pretty much got satisfying text. Did have to dig it out myself.

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 490
Joined: Sun May 12, 2013 8:55 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:08 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:21 am
Now i pretty much got satisfying text. Did have to dig it out myself.
We all have to dig it out of our listening heart, but first the heart must be rid of noise from in my case "Crazy Cloud", and then all of different "The Teacher" shines bright enough for enlightening us

It makes me happy, and that is one important aspect of Brahma vihara, so now we actually make truth of being kalyana mitta's online

pretty fantastic for us both :namaste:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 58 guests