J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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binocular
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J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:21 pm

Split from here: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=31446&start=20#p465416 mikenz66.
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:31 am
Why speculate about this kind of stuff when it is meaningless for anyone who is interested in truth? Freedom is not about adapting to any kind of behavior or thought program. Comparing Fransciscan monks to Thai Forest meditators is laughable. Just sayin'.

Questioner: ...but you say nothing about any intimation of the transcendental, the divine, or whatever you like to call it.

J.Krishnamurti: The intimation of that can be found only in freedom, and any
statement about it is the denial of freedom; any statement about it becomes a
verbal communication without meaning. It is there, but it cannot be found or
invited, least of all imprisoned in any system, or ambushed by any clever tricks of
the mind. It is not in the churches or the temples or the mosques. There is no
path to it, no guru, no system that can reveal its beauty; its ecstasy comes only
when there is love. This is enlightenment.


Does this get any traction in anyone here?
It doesn't get any traction in my mind, because it's just another religion, even while it purports not to be one.

Saengnapha
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Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:12 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:21 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Mar 30, 2018 5:31 am
Why speculate about this kind of stuff when it is meaningless for anyone who is interested in truth? Freedom is not about adapting to any kind of behavior or thought program. Comparing Fransciscan monks to Thai Forest meditators is laughable. Just sayin'.

Questioner: ...but you say nothing about any intimation of the transcendental, the divine, or whatever you like to call it.

J.Krishnamurti: The intimation of that can be found only in freedom, and any
statement about it is the denial of freedom; any statement about it becomes a
verbal communication without meaning. It is there, but it cannot be found or
invited, least of all imprisoned in any system, or ambushed by any clever tricks of
the mind. It is not in the churches or the temples or the mosques. There is no
path to it, no guru, no system that can reveal its beauty; its ecstasy comes only
when there is love. This is enlightenment.


Does this get any traction in anyone here?
It doesn't get any traction in my mind, because it's just another religion, even while it purports not to be one.
How do you arrive at J. Krishnamurti teaching a religion? Is there a JK temple? Path? Doctrine? Lineage? Of course, people will parrot what he says, but where are his precepts? So, in your view, anything that is a religion gets no traction? Yet, you are here on a Buddhist site. Please explain this great mystery.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:31 am

I agree in general with "Saengnapha", and trust that JK is well explained by my friend ...

:coffee:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

binocular
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Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by binocular » Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:44 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:12 am
How do you arrive at J. Krishnamurti teaching a religion? Is there a JK temple? Path? Doctrine? Lineage? Of course, people will parrot what he says, but where are his precepts?
You keep repeating what he says, and there are many other people who also repeat what he says, that makes for at least a provisional temple and lineage.

As for path, doctrine, and precepts: What he says is doctrine. That he teaches a path comes from him talking about the path, even if it is ex negativo. The precepts can be inferred from what he says (and you profusely quote).
So, in your view, anything that is a religion gets no traction? Yet, you are here on a Buddhist site. Please explain this great mystery.
Take the whole sentence: "It doesn't get any traction in my mind, because it's just another religion, even while it purports not to be one."
When people say things to the effect "Ours is not merely a religion, we don't teach mere opinions, what we say is The Truth", they are just one is so many who say such things. In fact, saying such things is very common. People who say such things should sort things out between themselves before they can rightfully expect others to listen to them. That's why, when such a person preaches to me, I want to tell them to first take it out with all the others who also claim to know The Truth, and then, when there's only one left, they should come talking to me.

Saengnapha
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Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:45 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:44 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:12 am
How do you arrive at J. Krishnamurti teaching a religion? Is there a JK temple? Path? Doctrine? Lineage? Of course, people will parrot what he says, but where are his precepts?
You keep repeating what he says, and there are many other people who also repeat what he says, that makes for at least a provisional temple and lineage.

As for path, doctrine, and precepts: What he says is doctrine. That he teaches a path comes from him talking about the path, even if it is ex negativo. The precepts can be inferred from what he says (and you profusely quote).
So, in your view, anything that is a religion gets no traction? Yet, you are here on a Buddhist site. Please explain this great mystery.
Take the whole sentence: "It doesn't get any traction in my mind, because it's just another religion, even while it purports not to be one."
When people say things to the effect "Ours is not merely a religion, we don't teach mere opinions, what we say is The Truth", they are just one is so many who say such things. In fact, saying such things is very common. People who say such things should sort things out between themselves before they can rightfully expect others to listen to them. That's why, when such a person preaches to me, I want to tell them to first take it out with all the others who also claim to know The Truth, and then, when there's only one left, they should come talking to me.
I think you are projecting a lot of what you've seen in religion on to JK and probably U.G. as well. This is the common view. There is something much more to what he is saying. That is why I asked the question about traction. It turns the mind on itself for a stereoscopic view of how we see everything.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:08 am

I wonder about how much time critics has put themselves "standing under" JK thoughts before concluding/judging?
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:15 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:44 am
So, in your view, anything that is a religion gets no traction? Yet, you are here on a Buddhist site. Please explain this great mystery.
Take the whole sentence: "It doesn't get any traction in my mind, because it's just another religion, even while it purports not to be one."
When people say things to the effect "Ours is not merely a religion, we don't teach mere opinions, what we say is The Truth", they are just one is so many who say such things. In fact, saying such things is very common. People who say such things should sort things out between themselves before they can rightfully expect others to listen to them. That's why, when such a person preaches to me, I want to tell them to first take it out with all the others who also claim to know The Truth, and then, when there's only one left, they should come talking to me.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Why do you come to a Buddhist forum if you have no interest in religious ideas and don't even deeply consider what is being discussed? You openly criticize monks whom you feel condescend toward women and that Theravada is basically male positive. I might even agree with you but it doesn't explain your interest in Buddhism which is a religion, yet its adherents display attitudes that you are against. Are you masochistic? Why would you subject yourself to any of this? I get no sense of passion from you except for the things that bug you. Sorry to be so frank.

Saengnapha
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:21 am

Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:08 am
I wonder about how much time critics has put themselves "standing under" JK thoughts before concluding/judging?
I think it's a very good point, Crazy cloud. In my case, I read his books for 3-4 years trying to understand what he was saying and then, one day, my eyes opened widely, unexpectedly, and decisively, amidst an internal crisis I had been struggling with all my life.

binocular
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Re: What is the Dark Night of the Soul in Buddhist terms?

Post by binocular » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:57 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:45 am
I think you are projecting a lot of what you've seen in religion on to JK and probably U.G. as well. This is the common view. There is something much more to what he is saying. That is why I asked the question about traction. It turns the mind on itself for a stereoscopic view of how we see everything.
Pretty much every religion, spiritual path or philosophy does that. It's nothing special.
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:15 am
binocular wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 9:44 am
So, in your view, anything that is a religion gets no traction? Yet, you are here on a Buddhist site. Please explain this great mystery.
Take the whole sentence: "It doesn't get any traction in my mind, because it's just another religion, even while it purports not to be one."
When people say things to the effect "Ours is not merely a religion, we don't teach mere opinions, what we say is The Truth", they are just one is so many who say such things. In fact, saying such things is very common. People who say such things should sort things out between themselves before they can rightfully expect others to listen to them. That's why, when such a person preaches to me, I want to tell them to first take it out with all the others who also claim to know The Truth, and then, when there's only one left, they should come talking to me.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Then read again.
Why do you come to a Buddhist forum if you have no interest in religious ideas and don't even deeply consider what is being discussed?
I'm not going to defend things you merely imagine I said or stances you merely imagine I hold.
You openly criticize monks whom you feel condescend toward women and that Theravada is basically male positive.

Copy-paste where I said that (the underlined part). Just because I'm female doesn't mean I'm a feminist.
I might even agree with you but it doesn't explain your interest in Buddhism which is a religion, yet its adherents display attitudes that you are against.
Are you masochistic? Why would you subject yourself to any of this? I get no sense of passion from you except for the things that bug you. Sorry to be so frank.
You're not frank, you're just assuming a lot of things about me that are not true.

auto
Posts: 370
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:14 pm

To think of that op quote then freedom is Chaos. Origin of everything. Its logical, that there is no path to it, if it is everything.
https://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Go ... chaos.html

Chaos was, according to Greek mythology, the origin of everything, and the first thing that ever existed. It was the primordial void, the source out of which everything was created, including the universe and the gods. The first primordial deities that emerged out of Chaos were Gaea (earth), Tartarus (underworld) and Eros (love), while later Erebus (darkness) and Nyx (night) also popped out. According to Hesiod, Chaos was also a place, much like Tartarus and the Heavens later, beyond which the Titans lived.

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Crazy cloud
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:20 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:21 am
Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:08 am
I wonder about how much time critics has put themselves "standing under" JK thoughts before concluding/judging?
I think it's a very good point, Crazy cloud. In my case, I read his books for 3-4 years trying to understand what he was saying and then, one day, my eyes opened widely, unexpectedly, and decisively, amidst an internal crisis I had been struggling with all my life.
Well, I thought you were one that had put neccesery effort into understanding (standing under), easy to see by the way you respond.
I haven't counted hours listening, and also done some reading, but mostly I love to "hear" how the mind of that precious teacher moved. Especially sweet to listen when he had meetings with younger people and kids, adorable and very patient, like genuinely good teachers often are imo

Be well!

:smile:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

auto
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by auto » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:58 pm

There is a path or a way to discover estimated entity. Basically like discovery of black holes, noone sees it but it is still there. It is affecting environment. So you can think there is something.

That is if you have craving then there is a way to stop it, but you won't use craving as path, you will need find the cause. But if you move away from feeling craving then you also are away from the environment near where the cause is.

So, that is the counter to the OP quote.

Saengnapha
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:54 pm

Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:20 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:21 am
Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:08 am
I wonder about how much time critics has put themselves "standing under" JK thoughts before concluding/judging?
I think it's a very good point, Crazy cloud. In my case, I read his books for 3-4 years trying to understand what he was saying and then, one day, my eyes opened widely, unexpectedly, and decisively, amidst an internal crisis I had been struggling with all my life.
Well, I thought you were one that had put neccesery effort into understanding (standing under), easy to see by the way you respond.
I haven't counted hours listening, and also done some reading, but mostly I love to "hear" how the mind of that precious teacher moved. Especially sweet to listen when he had meetings with younger people and kids, adorable and very patient, like genuinely good teachers often are imo

Be well!

:smile:
I had the good fortune to discover him as a young man and also to hear him speak. It was a special moment to see him in full force.

User avatar
Crazy cloud
Posts: 477
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Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by Crazy cloud » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:21 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:54 pm
Crazy cloud wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:20 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:21 am


I think it's a very good point, Crazy cloud. In my case, I read his books for 3-4 years trying to understand what he was saying and then, one day, my eyes opened widely, unexpectedly, and decisively, amidst an internal crisis I had been struggling with all my life.
Well, I thought you were one that had put neccesery effort into understanding (standing under), easy to see by the way you respond.
I haven't counted hours listening, and also done some reading, but mostly I love to "hear" how the mind of that precious teacher moved. Especially sweet to listen when he had meetings with younger people and kids, adorable and very patient, like genuinely good teachers often are imo

Be well!

:smile:
I had the good fortune to discover him as a young man and also to hear him speak. It was a special moment to see him in full force.
Awesome, I remember as a child about 8 yrs, sitting in the living room together with my parents, and on television they showed a short documentary of this remarkable teacher.There and then I saw on their faces that they didn't "get it", but they were impressed by his appearance. Later, and about 6 years ago one of his teachings flew by on youtube, and I had the time and luck to check out what it was, and after 5 minutes into the lecture I heard him say something like: If you think you can live like a pig, and also get good results from meditating, you can forget it!

I don't remember getting anything else from that lecture, but that was a very good advice or tough teaching, hats off! :)

Very true

Image
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters

chownah
Posts: 7417
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: J.Krishnamurti discussion.

Post by chownah » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:17 am

When you call yourself blah blah blah you are being violent? This is nonsense. I think it shows that it he was correct to not establish any teaching or doctrine.
chownah

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