What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Dinsdale
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:27 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:19 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:13 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?
Both of them work in mysterious ways, but with God's plan you can blame somebody else. ;)
You cannot argue with God. He always wins.

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Praise the Lord! :tongue:
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No_Mind
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:44 pm

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:27 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:19 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:13 pm


Both of them work in mysterious ways, but with God's plan you can blame somebody else. ;)
You cannot argue with God. He always wins.

:namaste:
Praise the Lord! :tongue:
The first and last thing I do daily

Glory be to God on high, and on earth peace, good will towards men. We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee, we glorify thee, we give thanks to thee for thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty. Amen

:namaste:
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:45 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:18 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:11 pm
Like I said before: "personality". IMO that is the biggest difference. Karma doesn't have one. That is why karma cannot be evil.

If karma had a personality, it would be a wicked one. If karma decided to punish and/or reward, even if it decided according to an "objective" or believed-to-be-objective standard, it would be quite wicked.
Good answer :thumbsup:
How do you navigate between these two stances?
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:44 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:27 pm
Praise the Lord! :tongue:
The first and last thing I do daily

Glory be to God on high, and on earth peace, good will towards men. We praise thee, we bless thee, we worship thee, we glorify thee, we give thanks to thee for thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty. Amen
If God and karma are the same, with the exception of personality, and personality would make karma wicked, then how does personality not make God wicked?

For instance, lets say I murder someone. "Karma" sends me to hell.

Whether or not I "deserved" to go to hell, if its the whim of karma/God, based on their personality, they could have decided to simply send both me and the person I murdered to heaven together. It's not considered "right", after all, I murdered someone, theoretically, but in the end, my suffering in hell, if made as a personal decision of an arbitrator, was somewhat arbitrary.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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No_Mind
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:45 pm
How do you navigate between these two stances?
I said Good Answer. I did not agree with an implied meaning that God maybe evil. He is irritating at times though.

You have to know something about Hindu belief in God

Looking upon -

God as father
God as child
God as friend
God as lover
and God as plain God

all are valid paths and practised.

Being angry with God is not much different than being angry with ones parent (or child or lover as case maybe)

So one can blame God a lot in Hinduism.

Also there is lot of belief in "I am God" Svayam Bhagavān and it is perfectly okay to be angry with oneself

Being Hindu-lite I have very fluid concept of God. I am perfectly capable of banishing Shiva Linga from my worship altar (sometimes Buddha faces it too)

I relate to both of them as if they are real and present with me at all times. May seem very strange to Judeo-Christians but not at all considered strange here.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:02 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:53 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:45 pm
How do you navigate between these two stances?
I said Good Answer. I did not agree with an implied meaning that God maybe evil. He is irritating at times though.

You have to know something about Hindu belief in God

Looking upon -

God as father
God as child
God as friend
God as lover
and God as plain God

all are valid paths and practised.

Being angry with God is not much different than being angry with ones parent (or child or lover as case maybe)

So one can blame God a lot in Hinduism.

Also there is lot of belief in "I am God" Svayam Bhagavān and it is perfectly okay to be angry with oneself
I suppose that once you add Hinduism to the mix, the paradigms of what "God" are shift so drastically, that IMO its not clear why using the "Western" term God need apply. Certainly this is not God according to Christianity, Judaism, Islam*, etc.

I'm not saying its wrong to use the word "God" for this idea, just that most because who believe in this "God" don't share this opinion. Its not a majority-stance. Not to say its invalid.

*Sufis are like JuBus, they don't count because they can get away with anything! :sage: :spy:
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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No_Mind
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:07 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:02 pm
I suppose that once you add Hinduism to the mix, the paradigms of what "God" are shift so drastically, that IMO its not clear why using the "Western" term God need apply. Certainly this is not God according to Christianity, Judaism, Islam*, etc.

I'm not saying its wrong to use the word "God" for this idea, just that most because who believe in this "God" don't share this opinion. Its not a majority-stance. Not to say its invalid.

*Sufis are like JuBus, they don't count because they can get away with anything! :sage: :spy:
Hold on

The thread is about Judeo-Christian God (burning bush one) and reward/punishment vis a vis Kamma and reward/punishment

But you asked me (when I replied to Spiny Dinsdale) how do I navigate ..

then my God (fluid God) came in .. let the thread continue as it is from Dinsdale's reply "Praise the Lord!" .. this is a minor distraction.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:22 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:07 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:02 pm
I suppose that once you add Hinduism to the mix, the paradigms of what "God" are shift so drastically, that IMO its not clear why using the "Western" term God need apply. Certainly this is not God according to Christianity, Judaism, Islam*, etc.

I'm not saying its wrong to use the word "God" for this idea, just that most because who believe in this "God" don't share this opinion. Its not a majority-stance. Not to say its invalid.

*Sufis are like JuBus, they don't count because they can get away with anything! :sage: :spy:
Hold on

The thread is about Judeo-Christian God (burning bush one) and reward/punishment vis a vis Kamma and reward/punishment

But you asked me (when I replied to Spiny Dinsdale) how do I navigate ..

then my God (fluid God) came in .. let the thread continue as it is from Dinsdale's reply "Praise the Lord!" .. this is a minor distraction.
Ah, my apologies. I assumed your methodology of navigation would also be your methodology of accepting Christianity.

But of course, one can use a Christian prayer without being a Christian. Nothing wrong with that. It just leads to silly assumptions of Coëmgenī.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Coëmgenu
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:42 pm

Here's something, according to Mahāyāna scripture, the culmination of successful śrāvakayāna practice leads immediately to akaniṣṭagandavyūha, the highest and most refined saṃbhogakāya buddhakṣetra, even greater and more refined than Sukhāvatī.

It is presided over by Śivamaheśvara, called "Sustainer" here rather than "Destroyer", who hosts Mahāvairocanabuddha, who directly instructs the arhantaḥ in subtle dharma (saddharma).

Theravāda should reinvent itself as a New Kamakura School of Late Mahāyāna Buddhism, saying "in this degenerate age, the dharma of the master yogis is no longer effective, only pure Theravāda practice can lead to rebirth in the Pure Land!"
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:05 pm

Buddhists don't know what kamma they did in the past, but we reflect on the law of kamma to come to terms with misfortune.

Pious Moslems (and Christians) reflect that it is God's Plan.

Looked at in this way, the concepts are very similar. Both are ways of rejecting blind chance as being an unsatisfactory explanation.

The Buddha gave many examples in the Commentaries of specific past causes for present effects. Punishment (Daṇḍavaggo).
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chownah
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by chownah » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:27 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:05 pm


The Buddha gave many examples in the Commentaries of specific past causes for present effects. Punishment (Daṇḍavaggo).
Just so that people are not misinformed, the buddha did not give examples in the commentaries....those who wrote the commentaries gave examples which they attribute to the buddha.
The commentaries were written many years after the buddha's death so he could not have given things in the commentaries.
chownah

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No_Mind
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:29 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:22 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:07 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:02 pm
I suppose that once you add Hinduism to the mix, the paradigms of what "God" are shift so drastically, that IMO its not clear why using the "Western" term God need apply. Certainly this is not God according to Christianity, Judaism, Islam*, etc.

I'm not saying its wrong to use the word "God" for this idea, just that most because who believe in this "God" don't share this opinion. Its not a majority-stance. Not to say its invalid.

*Sufis are like JuBus, they don't count because they can get away with anything! :sage: :spy:
Hold on

The thread is about Judeo-Christian God (burning bush one) and reward/punishment vis a vis Kamma and reward/punishment

But you asked me (when I replied to Spiny Dinsdale) how do I navigate ..

then my God (fluid God) came in .. let the thread continue as it is from Dinsdale's reply "Praise the Lord!" .. this is a minor distraction.
Ah, my apologies. I assumed your methodology of navigation would also be your methodology of accepting Christianity.

But of course, one can use a Christian prayer without being a Christian. Nothing wrong with that. It just leads to silly assumptions of Coëmgenī.
Off topic - Yesterday's answer was written in haste and somewhat incorrect. I am more a mystic than a religionist. That is why I am as intrigued by Ajahn Martin and his tudong practice as Carlos Castaneda, Sufism and so on.

All mystics are homeless, metaphorically speaking, and so am I. Religions feel like a rope that binds, a ligature. But every religion has something good in it and that is what I try to internalise.

This is a song which was composed by Bulleh Shah, an 18th century Sufi mystic from Lahore which sort of describes my belief (in strange Pakistani Punjabi!!) .. I do not know who I am .. my belief does not know what it is ..



Not a believer inside the mosque, am I
Nor a pagan disciple of false rites
Not the pure amongst the impure
Neither Moses, nor the Pharoh

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

Not in the holy Vedas, am I
Nor in opium, neither in wine
Not in the drunkard`s craze
Neither awake, nor in a sleeping daze

Bulleh! to me, I am not known

In happiness nor in sorrow, am I
Neither clean, nor a filthy mire
Not from water, nor from earth
Neither fire, nor from air, is my birth

Entire lyrics here

:focus:

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
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justindesilva
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Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:32 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

They both are invisible, they govern our lives, they are omnipresent, they reward you for good deeds, punish you for bad deeds.

:namaste:
Both of God's plan and laws of kamma work on rules of kusal and akusal. Hence both rely on good morals or dana, sila and bhavana. We can see these in referring to the tripitaka, bible or the quran. With the parallels in panca sila and ten commandments, too we can see the sages rely on the good and proper morals.

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