What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm

What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

They both are invisible, they govern our lives, they are omnipresent, they reward you for good deeds, punish you for bad deeds.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

They both are invisible, they govern our lives, they are omnipresent, they reward you for good deeds, punish you for bad deeds.

:namaste:
One is the will of a being, one isn't?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

They both are invisible, they govern our lives, they are omnipresent, they reward you for good deeds, punish you for bad deeds.

:namaste:
One is the will of a being. One isn't?
Which one is a being?

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:28 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

They both are invisible, they govern our lives, they are omnipresent, they reward you for good deeds, punish you for bad deeds.

:namaste:
One is the will of a being. One isn't?
Which one is a being?

:namaste:
God, in traditional monotheistic religions. Maybe in Hinduism "he" isn't a "being" though.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:28 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:26 pm
One is the will of a being. One isn't?
Which one is a being?

:namaste:
God, in traditional monotheistic religions. Maybe in Hinduism "he" isn't a "being" though.
Where in Christianity or Judaism does it say He is a being? As far as I know .. I maybe wrong .. He is not a being (something brought into existence) in Judaism or Christianity.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:34 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:28 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:27 pm


Which one is a being?

:namaste:
God, in traditional monotheistic religions. Maybe in Hinduism "he" isn't a "being" though.
Where in Christianity or Judaism does it say He is a being?

:namaste:
What is the technical definition of "a being", for you, in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:35 pm

I'll cut to the chase: technically, in Christianity at least, God is a being. Because he is alive with a body in Heaven currently.

According to that religion at least.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:34 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:28 pm
God, in traditional monotheistic religions. Maybe in Hinduism "he" isn't a "being" though.
Where in Christianity or Judaism does it say He is a being?

:namaste:
What is the technical definition of "a being", for you, in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam?
I can speak for myself

Being is something brought into existence
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:35 pm
I'll cut to the chase: technically, in Christianity at least, God is a being. Because he is alive with a body in Heaven currently.
That is not a body made of flesh

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:35 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:34 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:30 pm


Where in Christianity or Judaism does it say He is a being?

:namaste:
What is the technical definition of "a being", for you, in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam?
I can speak for myself

Being is something brought into existence

:namaste:
Then, no. God isn't a being by those definitions, if we believe in him.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:37 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 pm
Then, no. God isn't a being by those definitions, if we believe in him.
Right. Then what is difference between Him/It and Kamma

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1715
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:39 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:37 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:36 pm
Then, no. God isn't a being by those definitions, if we believe in him.
Right. Then what is difference between Him/It and Kamma

:namaste:
Personality IMO.

However, I don't think your definition of "being" necessarily applies in Christianity.

For instance, God is "three persons". How does that relate to his being or non-being?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1885
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by No_Mind » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:59 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:39 pm
Personality IMO.

However, I don't think your definition of "being" necessarily applies in Christianity.

For instance, God is "three persons". How does that relate to his being or non-being?
My question is not whether God is one or three or many .. how is God as we view Him/It different from Kamma

They are both manipulating marionettes from behind the curtain is it not ..

Going to sleep .. getting late here .. maybe some others will chip in

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

santa100
Posts: 2902
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by santa100 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:14 pm

No_Mind wrote:.. how is God as we view Him/It different from Kamma
Maybe there's really no difference after all. If anyone have read the Old Testament and even bits and pieces of the New Testament, for all practical purposes, one'd have no choice but to substitute the word God with the word Kamma in order to make sense out of those truely horrific and ghastly stories.

User avatar
binocular
Posts: 5336
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:13 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:59 pm
My question is not whether God is one or three or many .. how is God as we view Him/It different from Kamma

They are both manipulating marionettes from behind the curtain is it not ..
Since neither of them is a being, they don't exist, and cannot manipulate anyone. Ha ha.

User avatar
rightviewftw
Posts: 1089
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:17 pm

difference is that kamma is true and possible and the other is untrue and impossible.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

Justsit
Posts: 630
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:41 pm

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Justsit » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:31 pm

Kamma is simply cause and effect. Negative action - negative result (for the person acting). Positive action - positive result.
This happens regardless of whether a person "believes" in karma. No plan, no judgment, no punishment.

"God's" plan involves God acting in judgment of an individual's actions. The fact that it is "God's" plan implies that there is "active" judgment, with the resulting effect (positive or negative) based solely on God's interpretation and intervention.

Do you think that your actions are judged by "God?" If so, which one? Yahweh? Allah? Vishnu? Beelzebub? Whose plan? Whose rules take precedence?

IMO, trying to discuss "God" is next to impossible, because as soon as one hears the word, a concept of some sort arises. And that is very likely not the same as the next person's concept; a bit like the blind men describing an elephant. To have a rational discussion, the participants should agree on the definition of terms at the outset - a futile endeavor, in this case.

User avatar
binocular
Posts: 5336
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by binocular » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:47 pm

Ah, just go for the Hindu version in which God (Vishnu/Krishna) is the one who instated karma.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 3601
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:04 pm

One does not exist, and the other does.

JohnK
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by JohnK » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:23 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:59 pm
They are both manipulating marionettes from behind the curtain is it not ..
A person's actions cause results (in complex ways) -- no puppeteer as far as I understand kamma; (certainly no judge or system of justice - just cause and effect).
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

chownah
Posts: 7310
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: What is the difference between God's plan and Kamma?

Post by chownah » Sun Apr 01, 2018 2:49 am

There is a very big difference. god's plan is an external entity deciding your progress while kamma is the entity which results from you making your choices. god's plan places responsibility on god while kamma places the responsibility on YOU.
chownah

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 62 guests