Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cappuccino
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:36 am

Well you may have misrepresented the teaching.
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:43 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:36 am
Well you may have misrepresented the teaching.
Hold on. I asked at very beginning is there a sutta against this
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:39 am
I cannot think of one sutta that contradicts this proposition. I would welcome contradictions without argument.

It fits all givens in Buddhism.

It even fits with Jain idea of a soul with black residue which falls off as one works off bad Kamma.

:namaste:
:namaste:
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by pegembara » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:45 am

"Just as an oil lamp burns in dependence on oil & wick; and from the termination of the oil & wick — and from not being provided any other sustenance — it goes out unnourished; in the same way, when sensing a feeling limited to the body, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to the body.' When sensing a feeling limited to life, he discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling limited to life.' He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html

"Whereas formerly he foolishly had taken on mental acquisitions and brought them to completion, he has now abandoned them, their root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Thus a monk so endowed is endowed with the highest determination for relinquishment, for this — the renunciation of all mental acquisitions — is the highest noble relinquishment.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:49 am

all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here
notice it is being sensed

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:54 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:49 am
all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here
notice it is being sensed
He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'"
That is what I wrote in page 1 .. it is not sensed so it is not written about explicitly but implied. Only those five Khandas that can be understood immediately and with little effort are the ones he has mentioned.

My question was has he told anywhere that there are no other Khandhas?

Only someone who is dedicated in meditation will find it or sense it. If he mentioned it .. it would have been deified and he was too intelligent for that .. once deified the tag of permanence would have been slapped on it

I reframe my question - has the Buddha said anywhere that there is no Khandha other than this five?

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:59 am

Not sure what you're saying but

It's very difficult, to see beyond death.

A wrong solution is to say, there is no beyond.
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:02 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:59 am
Not sure what you're saying but

It's very difficult, to see beyond death.

A wrong solution is to say, there is no beyond.

A wrong solution for Nirvana, especially.
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you the five aggregates & the five clinging-aggregates. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .than.html
Did he ever say there are no more Khandhas? He said these are the five clinging Khandhas. Accepted. These Khandhas make us and we leave them behind when we die.

But he never said there are no other Khandhas

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:12 am

this doesn't need to be solved
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by James Tan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:25 am

To simplify it ,
1. No self doctrine is similar to annihilation .
2. Not self doctrine is a strategy to end sufferings , hence , Nibbana indefinable , not knownable but describe in term of past experience before breakup of the body . After the breakup is something Buddha never talk about .
3. Buddha will not leave anyone in doubt ,
The Tathagata only speak the truth and wholesome and do not keep any untold secret .
Therefore , no extra khanda that Buddha won't tell .
:reading:

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:08 am

James Tan wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 5:25 am
To simplify it ,
1. No self doctrine is similar to annihilation .
2. Not self doctrine is a strategy to end sufferings , hence , Nibbana indefinable , not knownable but describe in term of past experience before breakup of the body . After the breakup is something Buddha never talk about .
3. Buddha will not leave anyone in doubt ,
The Tathagata only speak the truth and wholesome and do not keep any untold secret .
Therefore , no extra khanda that Buddha won't tell .
Not commenting about this thread but about Buddhist path in general -

It is naive to assume that Buddha would have told everything about the path. If it were so then we would all be enlightened.

-------------------------------------------

I am a Math teacher so all my examples will be from Maths

Let us take a simple example

y = x^2 + x + 1 - this is called a quadratic, power of x is 2, its shape is a parabola or U or downward facing U, it has a minimum point if a U and a maximum point if downward facing U

x y
-3 7 (if x = -3 then y = 7 since (-3)^2 + (-3) + 1 = 9 - 3 + 1 = 7 and same down the list)
-2 3
-1 1
0 1
1 3
2 7
3 13

I have taught you all about the quadratic.

But if you observe it very carefully you will find in y column a strange thing

subtract from each y the next y

7 - 3 = 4
3 - 1 = 2
1 - 1 = 0
1 - 3 = -2
3 - 7 = -4
7 - 13 = -6

now do it again

4 - 2 = 2
2 - 0 = 2
0 - ( -2 ) = 2
( -2 ) - ( -4 ) = 2
( -4 ) - ( -6 ) = 2

Second difference of y column is same is a characteristic of quadratic.

Those students who figure it out in Grade 8 (without being told) belong to top 1% intellect and will belong to Mensa when they turn adults.

If we were told all the answers all of us would belong to Mensa.

-------------------------------------------

I think we have discussed this thread enough.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

pegembara
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by pegembara » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:30 am

If indeed there is a "soul" it is still not self. It's consistent with the saying that all things are not self - Sabbe dhamma anatta.
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

PAY ATTENTION TO TIME 12:49
"When he finds estrangement, passion fades out. With the fading of passion, he is liberated. When liberated, there is knowledge that he is liberated. He understands: 'Birth is exhausted, the holy life has been lived out, what can be done is done, of this there is no more beyond.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Enough said.
Last edited by pegembara on Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by James Tan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:32 am

It is unwise to compare a Tathagata to an ordinary defiled mind human being .
:reading:

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:56 am

Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "It is said that the world is empty, the world is empty, lord. In what respect is it said that the world is empty?"

"Insofar as it is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self: Thus it is said, Ananda, that the world is empty. And what is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self? The eye is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Forms... Eye-consciousness... Eye-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self.

"The ear is empty...

"The nose is empty...

"The tongue is empty...

"The body is empty...

"The intellect is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Ideas... Intellect-consciousness... Intellect-contact is empty of a self or of anything pertaining to a self. Thus it is said that the world is empty."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

i triple dog dare you to read it
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by James Tan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:56 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:08 am


Not commenting about this thread but about Buddhist path in general -

It is naive to assume that Buddha would have told everything about the path. If it were so then we would all be enlightened.

-------------------------------------------


:namaste:

Until now , I only heard one Theravada monk whom told there are Secret only passed down through orally dissemination . Thanks .
:reading:

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:57 am

but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "I have set forth the Dhamma … there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.
Maha-parinibbana Sutta

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:13 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 11:57 am
but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "I have set forth the Dhamma … there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.
Maha-parinibbana Sutta
And neither did I hold anything back in describing what is a quadratic .. I addressed this exact point in my example .. what is describing everything? It does not include insights .. a teacher can hold some back insights to assess student's progress.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Something that might interest the OP, since this is Connections to Other Paths:

Śrāvakayāna has two negations of two extremes*.

Bodhisattvayāna has four negations of four extremes*.

*I am 99.999% sure that one can find the fourfold negation in Pāli & Chinese śrāvaka material too, not just the twofold negation, but I cannot find attestation. I will post more if I can find it.

The twofold negation is
1) Existence/Affirmation (i.e. there "is" a self/soul)
2) Nonexistence/Negation (i.e. there is nothing, not "there is no self/soul")

The fourfold negation is
1) Existence/Affirmation (i.e. there is a self/soul, it exists like anything else)
2) Nonexistence/Negation (i.e. there is nothing)
3) Both existence and nonexistence/A mix of affirmation & negation (i.e. there is sort-of nothing and sort-of a self/soul, both at once)
4) Neither existence nor nonexistence/None of the above (i.e. the "self/soul" is "something else", undefined, entirely, and/or is inconceivable)

All of these are negated. We cannot say the self/soul is extant. We cannot say there is nothing. We cannot say the self/soul is both extant and nonextant. We cannot say the self/soul is free from the two extremes of existence and nonexistence (this is negation 4). This is standard Madhyamaka, but it is also found in śrāvaka literature.

I want to focus for a moment specifically on negation 4: neither existence nor non-existence.

This means that "something else" is not an option. "Some other ineffable mode of being" is not an option.

Even "the self/soul is indescribable/non-conceptual" is a violation of negation 4, as that would involve the self being neither simply extant nor simply nonextant.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:09 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:43 pm
Something that might interest the OP, since this is Connections to Other Paths:

Śrāvakayāna has two negations of two extremes*.

Bodhisattvayāna has four negations of four extremes*.

*I am 99.999% sure that one can find the fourfold negation in Pāli & Chinese śrāvaka material too, not just the twofold negation, but I cannot find attestation. I will post more if I can find it.

The twofold negation is
1) Existence/Affirmation (i.e. there "is" a self/soul)
2) Nonexistence/Negation (i.e. there is nothing, not "there is no self/soul")

The fourfold negation is
1) Existence/Affirmation (i.e. there is a self/soul, it exists like anything else)
2) Nonexistence/Negation (i.e. there is nothing)
3) Both existence and nonexistence/A mix of affirmation & negation (i.e. there is sort-of nothing and sort-of a self/soul, both at once)
4) Neither existence nor nonexistence/None of the above (i.e. the "self/soul" is "something else", undefined, entirely, and/or is inconceivable)

All of these are negated. We cannot say the self/soul is extant. We cannot say there is nothing. We cannot say the self/soul is both extant and nonextant. We cannot say the self/soul is free from the two extremes of existence and nonexistence (this is negation 4). This is standard Madhyamaka, but it is also found in śrāvaka literature.

I want to focus for a moment specifically on negation 4: neither existence nor non-existence.

This means that "something else" is not an option. "Some other ineffable mode of being" is not an option.

Even "the self/soul is indescribable/non-conceptual" is a violation of negation 4, as that would involve the self being neither simply extant nor simply nonextant.
Not an expert but Catuskoti is about the ultimate reality

and a version of it is found in Brahmajala Sutta

I am not speaking of ultimate reality.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:10 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:08 am


Not commenting about this thread but about Buddhist path in general -

It is naive to assume that Buddha would have told everything about the path. If it were so then we would all be enlightened.
The "I have left nothing untaught" (severe paraphrase) quote, afaik, is not implying that if you just read all of the Buddha's words you will become awakened.
These learnt, they became intoxicated with pride, thinking to themselves: “The Supreme Buddha knows just the Three Piṭakāni, and we know them too. So what is the difference between us?”
-Ja 245.

The argument of "if the Buddha told everyone everything everyone would be awakened" presumes that it is possible to guide someone to awakening just by telling them truths for them to believe.

The work, IMO, is what is not being factored in here. It is one thing to know all the Buddha's words. It is quite possible a thing to wish to achieve, but, it wouldn't get you closer to anything if you didn't work, at it, or, in other words, practice.

Italics for emphasis not for aggression.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:15 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:10 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:08 am


Not commenting about this thread but about Buddhist path in general -

It is naive to assume that Buddha would have told everything about the path. If it were so then we would all be enlightened.
The "I have left nothing untaught" (severe paraphrase) quote, afaik, is not implying that if you just read all of the Buddha's words you will become awakened.
These learnt, they became intoxicated with pride, thinking to themselves: “The Supreme Buddha knows just the Three Piṭakāni, and we know them too. So what is the difference between us?”
-Ja 245.

The argument of "if the Buddha told everyone everything everyone would be awakened" presumes that it is possible to guide someone to awakening just by telling them truths for them to believe.

The work, IMO, is what is not being factored in here. It is one thing to know all the Buddha's words. It is quite possible a thing to wish to achieve, but, it wouldn't get you closer to anything if you didn't work, at it, or, in other words, practice.

Italics for emphasis not for aggression.
No aggression found or suspected. I know who is writing with what intention in mind :smile:

I am almost on the verge of giving up study of all philosophy (Western / Eastern / everything in between) and spending that time in becoming the best baker in my city or growing prize winning chrysanthemums (seriously)

Six hours a day for n years is very large amount of time to spend getting nowhere. But what I have learned from philosophy will stand me in good stead when I pursue something else. It has been good training for over 20 years.


Image

Will try to grow flowers like these .. (picture from competition in Kolkata) in the next decade or create a business or do something else other than reading philosophy ..


:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:21 am, edited 3 times in total.
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