Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:12 pm

Greetings Cappuccino,
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:10 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:23 pm
all things are described as not-self, ergo they are not a soul.
Body isn't self, mind isn't self. And yet you have a body and mind.
They are to be regarded as "not-self"... not as something "you have".

If you wish to put your eggs into the soul basket, then be my guest, but don't think you can twist the Buddha's teaching to accommodate your soul theories.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:13 pm

I'm pointing out the body is there. As is soul perhaps.

Try telling someone you don't have a body.
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:16 pm

Greetings Cappuccino,
cappuccino wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:13 pm
I'm not twisting, I'm pointing out the body is there. As is soul.

Try telling someone you don't have a body.
The Noble Eightfold Path isn't about telling people such things.

Rather, it is about realizing the emptiness (sunnata) of anything that might possibly be regarded as "you" or "yours".

It goes against the grain, and isn't likely to win too many normie debates, but it is amenable to the winning of freedom and liberation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:18 pm

Anyway, there is no place in the scriptures that denies soul.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by chownah » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:04 am

If a soul existes until nibbana and then does not exist then that is text book case of annhilationism I think.
chownah

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:10 am

The word soul causes problem because one approaches it according to the religion one is born in. Even non-practising Christians cannot help but think of soul as something that enters heaven (or hell) after death. I am not speaking of soul from point of view of Christian eschatology.

Here in OP it means little more than life itself, call it a part of one that gets born and reborn. An embryo has no life (no vedana, sanna, phasso, vinnana). But after few weeks the fetus which develops from the embryo does. Something changed. That change is what I called soul.

We have something that causes us to be born repeatedly. At Nibbana it is uprooted.

Does this go against Buddhist teachings?

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:16 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:10 am
Does this go against Buddhist teachings?
Buddhism doesn't have a position on the soul.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:18 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:16 am
No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:10 am
Does this go against Buddhist teachings?
Buddhism doesn't have a position on the soul.
Not soul.

My hypothesis written without the word soul -

We have something that causes us to be born repeatedly. At Nibbana it is uprooted.

Does this go against Buddhist teachings?

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:21 am

Desire to delight here, causes rebirth.

Nirvana is the end, of that.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:28 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:21 am
Desire to delight here, causes rebirth.

Nirvana is the end, of that.
And what if we call desire to delight .. desire to be reborn .. as soul? Which persists life after life and ceases at Nibbana?

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:02 am

Buddhism has no position on soul.

Buddhism doesn't claim to know…
Last edited by cappuccino on Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by James Tan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:03 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:28 am
cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:21 am
Desire to delight here, causes rebirth.

Nirvana is the end, of that.
And what if we call desire to delight .. desire to be reborn .. as soul? Which persists life after life and ceases at Nibbana?

:namaste:
That is called self view .
:reading:

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:07 am

Buddhism denies the identity of being, but affirms the identity of the process.

http://www.acessoaoinsight.net/dhp/dhp1.php#N9

:anjali:
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:15 am

cappuccino wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:16 am
No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:10 am
Does this go against Buddhist teachings?
Buddhism doesn't have a position on the soul.
The Puggalavada did have some sort of soul theory, so I guess it depends on which Buddhist school...
Sujato wrote: Puggalavada is, according to the adherents of the school, not a contradiction with not-self: it is the correct explanation of not-self. Taking just the word or the idea and understanding it from the perspective of the opponents is not a very useful or kind way of understanding a religious philosophy.
...
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ti ... ts/5531/13


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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:19 am

The teaching is not annihilation, get over it. :tongue:

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