Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:35 am

cappuccino wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:31 am
Tibet is a way of life, a state of mind.

One can be there, wherever one is.
So astral projection it is

Good.

PM me the time

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I know one thing: that I know nothing

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:38 am

haha

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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:40 am

Watch Gabriel's video

Actually this one is better. Gabriel uses a GoPro .. a professional grade Nikon is always going to shoot better



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I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:18 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:47 pm
"That combined subtle body, subtle mind, no beginning, no end" - first 2 minutes of the video

If there are further questions about the soul model I proposed please take it up with HHDL



And for the first time since I began studying Buddhism in 2013 .. I have a clear idea of what I am looking for. That weird doubt about anatta irritating me like a buzzing mosquito has disappeared.
Later on in this thread you mention "sixth khandha".

HHDL is talking about the ālāyavijñānakāya, which stores bījāni. This is what is carried to and fro, and the backdrop against which carrying appears.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Saengnapha
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:26 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:18 am
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:47 pm
"That combined subtle body, subtle mind, no beginning, no end" - first 2 minutes of the video

If there are further questions about the soul model I proposed please take it up with HHDL



And for the first time since I began studying Buddhism in 2013 .. I have a clear idea of what I am looking for. That weird doubt about anatta irritating me like a buzzing mosquito has disappeared.
Later on in this thread you mention "sixth khandha".

HHDL is talking about the ālāyavijñānakāya, which stores bījāni. This is what is carried to and fro, and the backdrop against which carrying appears.
Is there any equivalent in Theravada?

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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:34 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:18 am
HHDL is talking about the ālāyavijñānakāya, which stores bījāni. This is what is carried to and fro, and the backdrop against which carrying appears.
Instead of reading more and more and more and even more and getting confused and then irritated .. I am trying to keep my mind calm, quiet and meditative.

Hence will not reply or participate in any thread for several months.

Exceptions - travel videos (e.g. shown to Meezer), general health queries, general queries or where there are perception errors about matters pertaining to India or Hinduism (e.g. the somewhat mistaken concept that Brahmins were superior which is portrayed in Nikayas and completely read out of context)

In matter of above exceptions will write what I want and exit. No reply to any cross questioning and no further explanation. Just table my answer for the record.

I will also share links in "Dalai Lama videos" and "Nature is stranger we can imagine" threads that I began.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:40 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:26 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:18 am
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:47 pm
"That combined subtle body, subtle mind, no beginning, no end" - first 2 minutes of the video

If there are further questions about the soul model I proposed please take it up with HHDL



And for the first time since I began studying Buddhism in 2013 .. I have a clear idea of what I am looking for. That weird doubt about anatta irritating me like a buzzing mosquito has disappeared.
Later on in this thread you mention "sixth khandha".

HHDL is talking about the ālāyavijñānakāya, which stores bījāni. This is what is carried to and fro, and the backdrop against which carrying appears.
Is there any equivalent in Theravada?
I wouldn't really know. Apparently Venerable Vasubandhu cites the bhavaṅgacitta of the Southern School as an antecedent of the ālāyavijñānakāya. It is almost identical to the Sautrāntika view, but they argued that this process ended in parinirvāṇa afaik.

The aṣṭavijñānakāyāḥ/eight-consciousnesses are similar to śrāvakayāna up until the ālāyavijñānakāya.

Kāyāḥ 1-6 correspond to the sense consciousnesses: cakṣur, śrotra, ghrāṇa, jihvā, kāya , manovijñānakāya.

7 is reflexive self-view arisen discursive consciousness.

8 is ālāyavijñānakāya.

That's just afaik though. The similarities really end at 6. But 7 I think can be construed reasonably. I'm not really a Yogācāra buff. Kliṣṭamanovijñānakāya seems a term different teachers have different opinions on.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Saengnapha
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:44 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:40 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:26 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:18 am
Later on in this thread you mention "sixth khandha".

HHDL is talking about the ālāyavijñānakāya, which stores bījāni. This is what is carried to and fro, and the backdrop against which carrying appears.
Is there any equivalent in Theravada?
I wouldn't really know. Apparently Venerable Vasubandhu cites the bhavaṅgacitta of the Southern School as an antecedent of the ālāyavijñānakāya. It is almost identical to the Sautrāntika view, but they argued that this process ended in parinirvāṇa afaik.

The aṣṭavijñānakāyāḥ/eight-consciousnesses are similar to śrāvakayāna up until the ālāyavijñānakāya.

Kāyāḥ 1-6 correspond to the sense consciousnesses: cakṣur, śrotra, ghrāṇa, jihvā, kāya , manovijñānakāya.

7 is reflexive self-view arisen discursive consciousness.

8 is ālāyavijñānakāya.

That's just afaik though.
But the alaya is not eternal and is also not inherently existing. This is mostly Yogacara teaching, I believe, where Mind is not fully transcended. Don't quote me, please. :D

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:51 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:44 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:40 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:26 am

Is there any equivalent in Theravada?
I wouldn't really know. Apparently Venerable Vasubandhu cites the bhavaṅgacitta of the Southern School as an antecedent of the ālāyavijñānakāya. It is almost identical to the Sautrāntika view, but they argued that this process ended in parinirvāṇa afaik.

The aṣṭavijñānakāyāḥ/eight-consciousnesses are similar to śrāvakayāna up until the ālāyavijñānakāya.

Kāyāḥ 1-6 correspond to the sense consciousnesses: cakṣur, śrotra, ghrāṇa, jihvā, kāya , manovijñānakāya.

7 is reflexive self-view arisen discursive consciousness.

8 is ālāyavijñānakāya.

That's just afaik though.
But the alaya is not eternal and is also not inherently existing. This is mostly Yogacara teaching, I believe, where Mind is not fully transcended. Don't quote me, please. :D
I think it depends on the Yogācārin you're talking to. See satyākāravādin vs nirākāravādin,
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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mikenz66
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:24 am

I'm no expert, but my understanding is that storehouse consiousness is a concept used to solve the same problem of continuity that bhavanghacitta is used for in Theravada. Here is a link to some earlier discussions:
viewtopic.php?t=28450#p406552

:heart:
Mike

Saengnapha
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:25 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:24 am
I'm no expert, but my understanding is that storehouse consiousness is a concept used to solve the same problem of continuity that bhavanghacitta is used for in Theravada. Here is a link to some earlier discussions:
viewtopic.php?t=28450#p406552

:heart:
Mike
Thanks, Mike. Samseva's posts explain this quite well.

Saengnapha
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:25 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:51 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:44 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:40 am

I wouldn't really know. Apparently Venerable Vasubandhu cites the bhavaṅgacitta of the Southern School as an antecedent of the ālāyavijñānakāya. It is almost identical to the Sautrāntika view, but they argued that this process ended in parinirvāṇa afaik.

The aṣṭavijñānakāyāḥ/eight-consciousnesses are similar to śrāvakayāna up until the ālāyavijñānakāya.

Kāyāḥ 1-6 correspond to the sense consciousnesses: cakṣur, śrotra, ghrāṇa, jihvā, kāya , manovijñānakāya.

7 is reflexive self-view arisen discursive consciousness.

8 is ālāyavijñānakāya.

That's just afaik though.
But the alaya is not eternal and is also not inherently existing. This is mostly Yogacara teaching, I believe, where Mind is not fully transcended. Don't quote me, please. :D
I think it depends on the Yogācārin you're talking to. See satyākāravādin vs nirākāravādin,
the link is bad.

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