Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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No_Mind
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Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:23 am

Can it be we have a soul .. but not one that is permanent (in a different way) ..

The soul disappears when we attain Nibbana

Does not this explanation fit all the questions .. from how are we reborn, what is reborn, to what is Nibbana (what is snuffed out)

The model I am proposing is .. God/Nature/Universe .. call it whatever put a soul into everyone .. as long as they have that soul they will keep on being reborn .. so try and get rid of the soul .. (bit like taking off a sweater) and you will never be born again.

Buddhism posits we have no eternal soul and we all keep asking what gets reborn. We have a soul till Nibbana. Does this not answer both.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:31 am

think of it like this,
There is a book and then comes a sequel, the first book is not same the second but because and of the first book arises the second book.
So in this analogy book is all that constitutes a person.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:39 am

I cannot think of one sutta that contradicts this proposition. I would welcome contradictions without argument.

It fits all givens in Buddhism.

It even fits with Jain idea of a soul with black residue which falls off as one works off bad Kamma.

:namaste:
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rightviewftw
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:46 am

So in regards to this soul
is it the feelings of a being?
is it the consciousness?
is it the body?
is it the perception?
is it the awareness?
is it the ideas?
is it the discursive or applied thought?
is it all these taken together?

What constitutes this soul that you speak of?

If by soul you mean suffering, then that is a fit but we dont have it, we = suffering.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:15 am

To make this model work I do not need to define the nature of soul. In fact that is not what I am trying

I am trying to connect the web - impermanence, nibbana, and the question - how are we reborn if there is no soul if nothing goes from one life to the next.

:namaste:
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by SarathW » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:53 am

We have a soul till Nibbana.
Yes.
Buddha called it (soul) ignorance.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Sam Vara
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:57 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:15 am
To make this model work I do not need to define the nature of soul. In fact that is not what I am trying

I am trying to connect the web - impermanence, nibbana, and the question - how are we reborn if there is no soul if nothing goes from one life to the next.

:namaste:
I think that the model does work, as far as it goes. You have proposed that there exists something which is consistent with several of the important teachings within the Buddhist tradition (specifically impermanence, continued post-mortem existence, and nibbana), and asked if there is anything within the teaching which falsifies your hypothesis that such a thing exists. I like this a lot because it is in line with Popper's conception of falsifiability - your scientific training is showing!

I know you said that you would welcome "contradictions without argument", so please be forgiving about my misgivings; I'm only mentioning them because I can't think of any suttas which contradict your point. My main issue with the hypothesis is that even if unfalsifiable, it wouldn't actually do much work for us. It appears to be saying no more than that there is a thing which prevents us being in nibbana, and which is the guarantor of rebirth (or at least kammic continuity), and which is not permanent. But unless we know more about what that thing is, then it is little more than saying that these conditions exist (i.e. that we are not in nibbana, that we are reborn, and that everything is impermanent) and that we assume they must have a cause or at least an underlying condition. That doesn't get us very far; we can pick it up as a view, but it doesn't help us.

As soon as you attempt to flesh out the hypothesis and say what such a soul is, you are likely to run into trouble regarding consistency with the suttas. It's not, as Sati found out, consciousness:
https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato

Nor is it any of the other khandas; they are impermanent. Nor is it any of the senses, or any of their objects; they are also impermanent. But unless we can say more about what such a soul is, or what it does, we are left with the view that there is an impermanent thing which provides post-mortem continuity rather than nibbana. And this is to say no more than we expect the same thing to be the cause of those conditions.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:15 pm

where you go wrong is assuming that there is such thing as a life and something goes in and out. There is only a moment by moment arising of consciousnesses, it is all kind of like a dream.
How to Destroy any addiction
How to Meditate: Satipatthana Mahasi
Медитация Сатипаттхана Випассана
How To Develop Factors of Enlightenment & Perceptions
Ven. Kutukurunde Nanananda's (Developing Metta)
Tyranny of Words - An Introduction to General Semantics
Dhammatalks categorized by topic @ video.sirimangalo.org/
Ledi Sayadaw's Anapana Dipani (Samatha) @ ffmt.fr/articles/maitres/LediS/anapana-dipani.ledi-sayadaw.pdf
Parallel Dhammapada @ myweb.ncku.edu.tw/~lsn46/tipitaka/sutta/khuddaka/dhammapada/dhp-contrast-reading/dhp-contrast-reading-en/

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No_Mind
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:39 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:57 am
As soon as you attempt to flesh out the hypothesis and say what such a soul is, you are likely to run into trouble regarding consistency with the suttas. It's not, as Sati found out, consciousness:
https://suttacentral.net/mn38/en/sujato

Nor is it any of the other khandas; they are impermanent. Nor is it any of the senses, or any of their objects; they are also impermanent. But unless we can say more about what such a soul is, or what it does, we are left with the view that there is an impermanent thing which provides post-mortem continuity rather than nibbana. And this is to say no more than we expect the same thing to be the cause of those conditions.
I have always held the view that it is a sixth khanda which Buddha was unwilling to put into the suttas because the moment he did .. it would be deified (because though impermanent it passes from one life to another) and some may propose that if there is such a khanda it is part of a bigger chunk of such a khanda and allow Hindus or rather writers of Upanishads to sabotage his teachings from inside and he was too intelligent for that.

He realized that some steady meditation (let us say 2 hours a day for 5 years) would be enough to cause a meditator understand that there is a sixth unspoken khanda and that anyone not doing such serious practice did not need to know about the hidden khanda.

Whereas the other khandas are readily understood, comprehending this one needs some commitment to meditation. (Remember the tucha Potila - small Potila - story where Buddha made fun of a very learned Buddhist monk because he did not meditate much) https://www.watkinsmagazine.com/catching-lizard-tail

The point being if we accept it as a sixth khanda .. it solves all the problems neatly. All that one has to do is meditate few thousand hours and find if this hypothesis is correct.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:51 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:39 pm

I have always held the view that it is a sixth khanda which Buddha was unwilling to put into the suttas because the moment he did .. it would be deified (because though impermanent it passes from one life to another) and some may propose that if there is such a khanda it is part of a bigger chunk of such a khanda and allow Hindus or rather writers of Upanishads to sabotage his teachings from inside and he was too intelligent for that.

He realized that some steady meditation (let us say 2 hours a day for 5 years) would be enough to bring a meditator understand that there is a sixth khanda and that anyone not doing such serious practice did not need to know about the hidden khanda.

Whereas the other khandas are readily understood, comprehending this one needs some commitment to meditation. (Remember the tucha Potila - small Potila - story where Buddha made fun of a very learned Buddhist monk because he did not meditate much) https://www.watkinsmagazine.com/catching-lizard-tail

The point being if we accept it as a sixth khanda .. it solves all the problems neatly. All that one has to do is meditate few thousand hours and find if this hypothesis is correct.

:namaste:
Many thanks, No_Mind. That makes things a lot more interesting! I'll give this one some more thought... :thinking:

I would have thought this probably deserves a new thread to itself.

:anjali:

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:01 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:51 pm

Many thanks, No_Mind. That makes things a lot more interesting! I'll give this one some more thought... :thinking:

I would have thought this probably deserves a new thread to itself.

:anjali:
This is a new thread :smile: and this is the hypothesis I present.

There is a "soul."

It is impermanent. But it passes from one life to another.

It may or may not be a khanda and its elusive presence can only be understood by an experienced meditator and its extinction possible only by an arahant. But it can be made extinct and therefore is subject to impermanence.

This khanda causes life.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by robertk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:16 pm

mod note : topic moved from General Theravada to Connections to other paths

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Lucas Oliveira » Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:18 pm

Soul

According to Bronkhorst, referring to Frauwallner, Schmithausen and Bhattacharya,

It is possible that original Buddhism did not deny the existence of the soul.[88][note 24]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-sectarian_Buddhism



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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by James Tan » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:01 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:01 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:51 pm

Many thanks, No_Mind. That makes things a lot more interesting! I'll give this one some more thought... :thinking:

I would have thought this probably deserves a new thread to itself.

:anjali:
This is a new thread :smile: and this is the hypothesis I present.

There is a "soul."

It is impermanent. But it passes from one life to another.

It may or may not be a khanda and its elusive presence can only be understood by an experienced meditator and its extinction possible only by an arahant. But it can be made extinct and therefore is subject to impermanence.

This khanda causes life.

:namaste:
The only different is that khanda no.6 is impermanent and the soul or Buddha nature is permanent .
:reading:

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by dylanj » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:01 pm

susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:46 pm

If the word "soul" simply refers to an incorporeal component in living things that can continue after death, then Buddhism does not deny the existence of the soul. Instead, Buddhism denies the existence of a permanent entity that remains constant behind the changing corporeal and incorporeal components of a living being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul#Buddhism

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:26 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:01 pm

This is a new thread :smile: and this is the hypothesis I present.
Blimey! Some kind of soul theory is one thing, but a great undiscovered Khandha is something altogether more serious!

My reservations would be exactly the same, in that whatever this "factor X" is, it serves merely to link three bits of the Buddha's teaching together. In the absence of other characteristics, it doesn't seem to do any work at all.

Personally, I wouldn't be keen on inventing a new khandha to do this work, as I see them as attributes of normal experience rather than substances or things which could exist without our being aware of them. But whatever this factor is, if meditation is necessary to discover this thing, then it is likely that some accomplished meditator would have discovered it and "let the cat out of the bag", so to speak. There are no secret instructions to meditators who crack the code not to tell others. And there is always the Buddha's claim that:
I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ati/tip ... .vaji.html

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:23 pm

Greetings,
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:23 am
Can it be we have a soul ..
No. In the suttas, all things are described as not-self, ergo they are not a soul.

This is certainly true of anything which we might subjugate (i.e. believe "we have").

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by equilibrium » Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:53 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:15 am
.....how are we reborn if there is no soul if nothing goes from one life to the next.
cycle of rebirth.....under SN 22.87: notes on Consciousness (established or unestablished)…and it is not a self.
The Blessed One then addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Come, bhikkhus, let us go to the Black Rock on the Isigili Slope, where the clansman Vakkali has used the knife.”

“Yes, venerable sir,” those bhikkhus replied. Then the Blessed One, together with a number of bhikkhus, went to the Black Rock on the Isigili Slope. The Blessed One saw in the distance the Venerable Vakkali lying on the bed with his shoulder turned.

Now on that occasion a cloud of smoke, a swirl of darkness, was moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards, and to the intermediate quarters. The Blessed One then addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Do you see, bhikkhus, that cloud of smoke, that swirl of darkness, moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards, and to the intermediate quarters?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Vakkali, wondering:

‘Where now has the consciousness of the clansman Vakkali been established?’

However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Vakkali has attained final Nibbāna.”

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Re: Do we have a soul till Nibbana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 10:23 pm
all things are described as not-self, ergo they are not a soul.

Body isn't self, mind isn't self. And yet you have a body and mind.
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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