Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:59 pm

There is no distinction whatsoever between saṃsāra and
nirvāṇa.
Does this mean without Samsara there is no Nibbana?
Or
Samsara and Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:06 pm

they're opposites in every way
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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aflatun
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by aflatun » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:07 pm

It means samsara understood is nirvana. It also means neither can be established as any of the four extremes. It doesn’t mean there is no difference between nirvana (recognition) and samsara (delusion) from the perspective of the practitioner.
Last edited by aflatun on Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:09 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:59 pm
There is no distinction whatsoever between saṃsāra and
nirvāṇa.
Does this mean without Samsara there is no Nibbana?
Or
Samsara and Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?
It means they are completely identical. As in, realization of saṃsāra is realization of nirvāṇa. Afaik/IMO.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by cappuccino » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:28 pm

there is a desert

there is a fertile spot in a desert where water is found

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aflatun
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by aflatun » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:36 pm

Of course there is. Who said otherwise?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Saengnapha
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:19 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:59 pm
There is no distinction whatsoever between saṃsāra and
nirvāṇa.
Does this mean without Samsara there is no Nibbana?
Or
Samsara and Nibbana the two sides of the same coin?
All descriptions cannot capture what the phrase samsara is nirvana and vice versa means. When you define this, you create only images, more thinking, more grasping. It has nothing to do with opposites. It is about suchness. What can you say about suchness? Does it exist? :D

SarathW
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:54 am

What can you say about suchness? Does it exist
Buddha said there is an escape from Samsara.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cappuccino
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Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by cappuccino » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:19 am
It has nothing to do with opposites.

Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One

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