Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:33 am

Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?
If not what are the stages of enlightenment for them?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:27 pm

Of course there are stages but not four , instead Mahayana has ten bhumi stages . But I wonder why you are interested in this because you seems to disagree with their doctrine ?!

:shrug:

SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:31 pm

you seems to disagree with their doctrine ?!
No just a matter of interest.
Ten Bhumi appears to be Jhanic states in Theravada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bh%C5%ABmi_(Buddhism)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:26 am

Ten bhumis is not a jhanic state . You are trying to take the savaka path and stages to do the mapping with Mahayana and Vajrayana . I m afraid you will be disappointed .

SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:55 am

Ten bhumis is not a jhanic state .
Then how do they eliminate ten fetters?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:04 am

You are using the ten fetters model which does not match ten bhumis model .
The Mahayana cultivates the six paramita before attaining enlightenment .
As I said , you are not interested in taking this route . Why bother ?

SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:13 am

You are using the ten fetters model which does not match ten bhumis model .
Doesn't Mahayana teach Anusaya (latent factors)?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:35 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:13 am
You are using the ten fetters model which does not match ten bhumis model .
Doesn't Mahayana teach Anusaya (latent factors)?
The Yogacarabhumi Sastra mentions the ten anusaya which are: greed, anger, pride, ignorance, doubt, identification with the body, nihilism or eternalism, disbelief in the laws of karma, self-righteousness, and excessive asceticism.



In the Theravada tradition, generally we contemplate suffering , impermanence and not self .
In the Mahayana tradition, more often we are taught to contemplate the fundamental emptiness and impermanence of phenomenon .

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:45 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:35 pm
SarathW wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:13 am
You are using the ten fetters model which does not match ten bhumis model .
Doesn't Mahayana teach Anusaya (latent factors)?
The Yogacarabhumi Sastra mentions the ten anusaya which are: greed, anger, pride, ignorance, doubt, identification with the body, nihilism or eternalism, disbelief in the laws of karma, self-righteousness, and excessive asceticism.



In the Theravada tradition, generally we contemplate suffering , impermanence and not self .
In the Mahayana tradition, more often we are taught to contemplate the fundamental emptiness and impermanence of phenomenon .
One of the difficulties with Theravada is the lack of a dialectic that undermines the views of the intellect. It is really not a self-critical path of reason, but a path of purification and attainment. To me, this is not the highest teaching of the Buddha and what he meant by suchness. Without the undermining of views, there is no emptiness and the nature of phenomenon is never seen.

SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:47 am

self-righteousness
What is self-righteousness?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:31 am

The view we hold true yet it is wrong !
If we have a heightened view of our own importance and permanence, then we will be egotistical and selfish, and our sense of goodness turns self-righteousness .

SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:22 am

The view we hold true yet it is wrong !
What is equivalent in Theravada?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:22 am
The view we hold true yet it is wrong !
What is equivalent in Theravada?
AN 7.11 PTS: A iv 9
Anusaya Sutta: Obsessions (1)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 2001
"Monks, there are these seven obsessions.[1] Which seven?

"(1) The obsession of sensual passion.

"(2) The obsession of resistance.

"(3) The obsession of views.

"(4) The obsession of uncertainty.

"(5) The obsession of conceit.

"(6) The obsession of passion for becoming.

"(7) The obsession of ignorance.

"These are the seven obsessions."

If you insist , the obsession of views .

SarathW
Posts: 9986
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:53 am

Thanks, James.
What is the highest attainment in Mahayana?
ie In Theravada the highest attainment is the Arahant.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

James Tan
Posts: 834
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Do we find four stages of sainthood in Mahayana or Vajrayana?

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:54 am

The ultimate goal for Mahayana is SammaSamBuddha.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: rightviewftw and 55 guests