Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
jmccoy
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by jmccoy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:17 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:10 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:56 am
Even though pranayama is more or less disregarded in Buddhist practice we still have to consider that in deep meditation (such as extended anapana) breathing slows dramatically or even "stops." Don't the yogis call this "kevala kumbhaka?"
Pranayama is a type of "brute force" cultivation of the so-called breathless state while Buddhist practice will lead to or toward it more passively and gradually (and safely).

I think the Tathagata was wise in omitting pranayama since it can be problematic for people with certain health issues and he seemed to be all for making meditation / "yoga" (enlightenment) more of a mainstream thing, which I don't think it was before his day (correct me if I'm wrong).
No historical evidence is there about various breathing exercises .. pranayam .. existed at time of Buddha .. may or may not have.

I doubt if Hatha Yoga (all the physical twisting) was there in his time. Most probably by his time yogis had perfected ways of strengthening the spine and legs (to sit for long periods) .. but nothing more. I think rechak, kumbhak etc all came later
The Tathagata seems to describe practicing pranayama in the Mahaasaccaka Sutta
Aggivessana, then it occurred to me, what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths, entering through the nose and mouth. When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose and mouth, air entering through the ear lobes made much noise. It was like the sound that came from the bellows of the smithy. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through the nose and mouth, air entering through the ear lobes made much noise. My effort was aroused repeatedly, my mindfulness was established, the body was not appeased owing to the difficult exertion. Aggivessana, even these arisen unpleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle.

Aggivessana, then it occurred to me what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths further. I stopped the air, entering through the nose and mouth and ear lobes. When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose, mouth and the ear lobes, a lot of air disturbed my top. Like a strong man was carving my top with a sharp blade. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through the nose and mouth, and ear lobes, a lot of air disturbed my top. My effort was aroused repeatedly, my mindfulness was established, the body was not appeased owing to the difficult exertion. Aggivessana, even these arisen unpleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle.

Aggivessana, then it occurred to me what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths still more. I stopped the air, entering through the nose, mouth and ear lobes, further. When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose, mouth and the ear lobes further, I felt a lot of pain in the head...Like a strong man giving a head wrap with a strong turban. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through the nose, mouth, and ear lobes further, I felt a lot of pain in the head. My effort was aroused repeatedly, unconfused mindfulness established, the body was not appeased owing to the difficult exertion. Aggivessana, even then these arisen unpleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle

Aggivessana, then it occurred to me what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths, for a longer time. I stopped the air, entering through the nose mouth and ear lobes, for a longer time When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose, mouth and the ear lobes for a longer time, I felt a lot of pain in the stomach .As though a clever butcher or his apprentice was carving the stomach with a butcher’s knife. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through the nose and mouth, and ear lobes for a longer time I felt a lot of pain in the stomach. My effort was aroused repeatedly, unconfused mindfulness established. My body was not appeased owing to the difficult exertion. Aggivessana, even then these arisen unpleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle.

Aggivessana, then it occurred to me what if I practiced stopping the in-breaths and the out-breaths, for a longer time. I stopped the air, entering through the nose mouth and ear lobes, for a longer time. When I practiced stopping in-breaths and out-breaths entering through the nose, mouth and the ear lobes for a longer time, I felt a lot of burning in the body. Like a strong man taking a weaker one, by his hands and feet was burning and scorching him in a pit of burning charcoal. In the same manner when I stopped in-breaths and out breaths, entering through my nose and mouth, and ear lobes for a longer time I felt a lot of burning in the body. My effort was aroused repeatedly, unconfused mindfulness established, the body was not appeased owing to the difficult exertion. Aggivessana, even then these arisen unpleasant feelings did not take hold of my mind and settle. Then the gods seeing me thus said, the recluse Gotama is dead. A certain deity said thus: The recluse Gotama is not dead. Will not die. Will become perfect like this.

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No_Mind
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:30 am

jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:56 am
Even though pranayama is more or less disregarded in Buddhist practice we still have to consider that in deep meditation (such as extended anapana) breathing slows dramatically or even "stops." Don't the yogis call this "kevala kumbhaka?"
Pranayama is a type of "brute force" cultivation of the so-called breathless state while Buddhist practice will lead to or toward it more passively and gradually (and safely).

I think the Tathagata was wise in omitting pranayama since it can be problematic for people with certain health issues and he seemed to be all for making meditation / "yoga" (enlightenment) more of a mainstream thing, which I don't think it was before his day (correct me if I'm wrong).
Slightly off topic .. but you have to note this (all the twisting of limbs) is from Shaiva tradition .. not Vaishnava or Shakta though they too believe in plenty of meditation .. but only sitting meditation with breath control as they learn from their teacher.

Meditation as taught by Ram Krishna Mission does not include Hatha Yoga .. but sitting meditation .. neither Swami Vivekananda nor Ramana Maharishi .. the only two people I believe attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi (others may have but we do not know of them .. and many claim but are most probably nit telling truth) did not do all the twisting either.

Swami Vivekananda followed a punishing meditation schedule. Hours and hours daily as he has written. But no where does he mention twisting or doing pranayama as we know it.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

jmccoy
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by jmccoy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:13 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:30 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:56 am
Even though pranayama is more or less disregarded in Buddhist practice we still have to consider that in deep meditation (such as extended anapana) breathing slows dramatically or even "stops." Don't the yogis call this "kevala kumbhaka?"
Pranayama is a type of "brute force" cultivation of the so-called breathless state while Buddhist practice will lead to or toward it more passively and gradually (and safely).

I think the Tathagata was wise in omitting pranayama since it can be problematic for people with certain health issues and he seemed to be all for making meditation / "yoga" (enlightenment) more of a mainstream thing, which I don't think it was before his day (correct me if I'm wrong).
Slightly off topic .. but you have to note this (all the twisting of limbs) is from Shaiva tradition .. not Vaishnava or Shakta though they too believe in plenty of meditation .. but only sitting meditation with breath control as they learn from their teacher.

Meditation as taught by Ram Krishna Mission does not include Hatha Yoga .. but sitting meditation .. neither Swami Vivekananda nor Ramana Maharishi .. the only two people I believe attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi (others may have but we do not know of them .. and many claim but are most probably nit telling truth) did not do all the twisting either.

Swami Vivekananda followed a punishing meditation schedule. Hours and hours daily as he has written. But no where does he mention twisting or doing pranayama as we know it.

:namaste:
I honestly fail to see how analyzing the omission of practicing pranayama against the inclusion of practicing pranayama is "slightly off topic" especially in the wake of several responses on your part and others' about Brahman / Nothingness (which is more than slightly off topic). Doesn't your cheat-sheet in the original post actually refer to pranayama? Isn't pranayama mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali? etc? What's off topic about it?

I also didn't really make a case for extensive asana practice or even multiple asana - I said asana is there in Buddhist practice and specifically I'm talking about sitting meditation (sukhasana is an asana as is padmasana). If you sit in sukhasana and watch your breathing, you are doing asana. If you sit in padmasana and watch your body sensations, you are doing asana.

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No_Mind
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:40 am

jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:13 am
I honestly fail to see how analyzing the omission of practicing pranayama against the inclusion of practicing pranayama is "slightly off topic" especially in the wake of several responses on your part and others' about Brahman / Nothingness (which is more than slightly off topic). Doesn't your cheat-sheet in the original post actually refer to pranayama? Isn't pranayama mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali? etc? What's off topic about it?

I also didn't really make a case for extensive asana practice or even multiple asana - I said asana is there in Buddhist practice and specifically I'm talking about sitting meditation (sukhasana is an asana as is padmasana). If you sit in sukhasana and watch your breathing, you are doing asana. If you sit in padmasana and watch your body sensations, you are doing asana.
Hold on .. I meant bringing in example of Swami Vivekananda, Ramana Maharshi as people who did not do Hatha Yoga or twisting limbs, by me, is off topic .. I was not weighing in on pranayama (which is simply put breath control ..)

You are correct that sitting in sukhasana and observing breath is asana. I write with .. instead of comma and that sometimes is difficult to understand.

On another note .. breath control which later came to be known as pranayama must have existed before Buddha (I suspect that sitting contemplation is as old as civilization in India) .. but probably it was not called pranayama .. Patanjali existed somewhere between 200 BCE and 400 CE (and to confuse matters there were three Patanjalis making it quite difficult to understand when this text was written)

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

jmccoy
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by jmccoy » Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:09 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:40 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:13 am
I honestly fail to see how analyzing the omission of practicing pranayama against the inclusion of practicing pranayama is "slightly off topic" especially in the wake of several responses on your part and others' about Brahman / Nothingness (which is more than slightly off topic). Doesn't your cheat-sheet in the original post actually refer to pranayama? Isn't pranayama mentioned in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali? etc? What's off topic about it?

I also didn't really make a case for extensive asana practice or even multiple asana - I said asana is there in Buddhist practice and specifically I'm talking about sitting meditation (sukhasana is an asana as is padmasana). If you sit in sukhasana and watch your breathing, you are doing asana. If you sit in padmasana and watch your body sensations, you are doing asana.
Hold on .. I meant bringing in example of Swami Vivekananda, Ramana Maharshi as people who did not do Hatha Yoga or twisting limbs, by me, is off topic .. I was not weighing in on pranayama (which is simply put breath control ..)

You are correct that sitting in sukhasana and observing breath is asana. I write with .. instead of comma and that sometimes is difficult to understand.

On another note .. breath control which later came to be known as pranayama must have existed before Buddha (I suspect that sitting contemplation is as old as civilization in India) .. but probably it was not called pranayama .. Patanjali existed somewhere between 200 BCE and 400 CE (and to confuse matters there were three Patanjalis making it quite difficult to understand when this text was written)

:namaste:
I apologize for the misunderstanding :namaste: :)

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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by alfa » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:38 am

Buddha may not have taught pranayama per se but isn't watching the breath somewhat similar? I find too many similarities between yoga and Buddhism with respect to practice - moral codes, self-control, meditation, etc.

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No_Mind
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:19 am

alfa wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:38 am
Buddha may not have taught pranayama per se but isn't watching the breath somewhat similar? I find too many similarities between yoga and Buddhism with respect to practice - moral codes, self-control, meditation, etc.
Yes that is what I said .. practicing mindfulness of the breath later became known as pranayama (and a technique/branch of meditation in its own right) as far as I can understand.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

alfa
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by alfa » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:36 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:19 am
alfa wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:38 am
Buddha may not have taught pranayama per se but isn't watching the breath somewhat similar? I find too many similarities between yoga and Buddhism with respect to practice - moral codes, self-control, meditation, etc.
Yes that is what I said .. practicing mindfulness of the breath later became known as pranayama (and a technique/branch of meditation in its own right) as far as I can understand.

:namaste:
It's my firm belief that yoga existed before Buddha and that he himself must've practised pranayama during his early days as a seeker. Patanjali simply made a rigorous system later on. But I don't think Patanjali invented it - he developed what already existed.

Saengnapha
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Saengnapha » Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:30 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:19 am
alfa wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:38 am
Buddha may not have taught pranayama per se but isn't watching the breath somewhat similar? I find too many similarities between yoga and Buddhism with respect to practice - moral codes, self-control, meditation, etc.
Yes that is what I said .. practicing mindfulness of the breath later became known as pranayama (and a technique/branch of meditation in its own right) as far as I can understand.

:namaste:
Consolidation is what keeps the illusion alive.

jmccoy
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by jmccoy » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:53 am

No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:30 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:56 am
Even though pranayama is more or less disregarded in Buddhist practice we still have to consider that in deep meditation (such as extended anapana) breathing slows dramatically or even "stops." Don't the yogis call this "kevala kumbhaka?"
Pranayama is a type of "brute force" cultivation of the so-called breathless state while Buddhist practice will lead to or toward it more passively and gradually (and safely).

I think the Tathagata was wise in omitting pranayama since it can be problematic for people with certain health issues and he seemed to be all for making meditation / "yoga" (enlightenment) more of a mainstream thing, which I don't think it was before his day (correct me if I'm wrong).
.. neither Swami Vivekananda nor Ramana Maharishi .. the only two people I believe attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi (others may have but we do not know of them .. and many claim but are most probably nit telling truth) did not do all the twisting either.
What is your take on Adi Da Samraj?

Saengnapha
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 pm

jmccoy wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:53 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:30 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:56 am
Even though pranayama is more or less disregarded in Buddhist practice we still have to consider that in deep meditation (such as extended anapana) breathing slows dramatically or even "stops." Don't the yogis call this "kevala kumbhaka?"
Pranayama is a type of "brute force" cultivation of the so-called breathless state while Buddhist practice will lead to or toward it more passively and gradually (and safely).

I think the Tathagata was wise in omitting pranayama since it can be problematic for people with certain health issues and he seemed to be all for making meditation / "yoga" (enlightenment) more of a mainstream thing, which I don't think it was before his day (correct me if I'm wrong).
.. neither Swami Vivekananda nor Ramana Maharishi .. the only two people I believe attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi (others may have but we do not know of them .. and many claim but are most probably nit telling truth) did not do all the twisting either.
What is your take on Adi Da Samraj?
He liked to change his name every couple of years. Identity problem?

jmccoy
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by jmccoy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:15 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 pm
jmccoy wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:53 am
No_Mind wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 7:30 am

.. neither Swami Vivekananda nor Ramana Maharishi .. the only two people I believe attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi (others may have but we do not know of them .. and many claim but are most probably nit telling truth) did not do all the twisting either.
What is your take on Adi Da Samraj?
He liked to change his name every couple of years. Identity problem?
Sure but when one has no identity then it is appropriate to have an identity problem.
One could say he was perhaps adjusting his identity to suit the conditions/circumstances of his disciples

Somewhere else on this site someone mentioned that Adi Da was one of the, or at least a, "great poser" and I pretty much agree with that assessment but I was curious about what our fellow Brahmo (No_Mind) might have to say or think about the "Avatara" Adi Dam Samraj especially after recognizing Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi as one of the only ones of the 20th century to have achieved Nirvikalpa :)

Adi Da went on to say he was the only 7th stage realizer and that Ramana was at most a 6th stage realizer. I think Da was full of crap on that call. But otherwise Da does have a unique clarity and precision that cannot easily be discounted in its relevance to the process and product of Enlightenment.

Saengnapha
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Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:05 am

jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:15 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 pm
jmccoy wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:53 am


What is your take on Adi Da Samraj?
He liked to change his name every couple of years. Identity problem?
Sure but when one has no identity then it is appropriate to have an identity problem.
One could say he was perhaps adjusting his identity to suit the conditions/circumstances of his disciples

Somewhere else on this site someone mentioned that Adi Da was one of the, or at least a, "great poser" and I pretty much agree with that assessment but I was curious about what our fellow Brahmo (No_Mind) might have to say or think about the "Avatara" Adi Dam Samraj especially after recognizing Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi as one of the only ones of the 20th century to have achieved Nirvikalpa :)

Adi Da went on to say he was the only 7th stage realizer and that Ramana was at most a 6th stage realizer. I think Da was full of crap on that call. But otherwise Da does have a unique clarity and precision that cannot easily be discounted in its relevance to the process and product of Enlightenment.
Did you ever meet him?

jmccoy
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 6:18 pm

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by jmccoy » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:02 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:05 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:15 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:20 pm

He liked to change his name every couple of years. Identity problem?
Sure but when one has no identity then it is appropriate to have an identity problem.
One could say he was perhaps adjusting his identity to suit the conditions/circumstances of his disciples

Somewhere else on this site someone mentioned that Adi Da was one of the, or at least a, "great poser" and I pretty much agree with that assessment but I was curious about what our fellow Brahmo (No_Mind) might have to say or think about the "Avatara" Adi Dam Samraj especially after recognizing Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi as one of the only ones of the 20th century to have achieved Nirvikalpa :)

Adi Da went on to say he was the only 7th stage realizer and that Ramana was at most a 6th stage realizer. I think Da was full of crap on that call. But otherwise Da does have a unique clarity and precision that cannot easily be discounted in its relevance to the process and product of Enlightenment.
Did you ever meet him?
No

Saengnapha
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Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Feb 24, 2018 8:12 am

jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:02 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:05 am
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:15 am

Sure but when one has no identity then it is appropriate to have an identity problem.
One could say he was perhaps adjusting his identity to suit the conditions/circumstances of his disciples

Somewhere else on this site someone mentioned that Adi Da was one of the, or at least a, "great poser" and I pretty much agree with that assessment but I was curious about what our fellow Brahmo (No_Mind) might have to say or think about the "Avatara" Adi Dam Samraj especially after recognizing Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi as one of the only ones of the 20th century to have achieved Nirvikalpa :)

Adi Da went on to say he was the only 7th stage realizer and that Ramana was at most a 6th stage realizer. I think Da was full of crap on that call. But otherwise Da does have a unique clarity and precision that cannot easily be discounted in its relevance to the process and product of Enlightenment.
Did you ever meet him?
No
Then all you have are various ideas that you've formulated through reading his books and accounts of others. You have no first hand experience of what it is like to be around him and his disciples and live the life that he is proposing. Am I correct? You could be completely mistaken about your conclusions, and the people that have talked about him could have been mistaken about their conclusions, both positive or negative. So what do you rely on to 'judge' someone like him or anyone else that you really don't know or have first hand experience with?

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