Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:15 am

I was trying to explain the steps/stages of Hindu practice to someone here and came upon this summary. It is very brief.

http://www.expressionsofspirit.com/yoga/eight-limbs.htm

How similar is it to Buddhist practice (compare practice to practice .. do not go off topic and keep repeating ad nauseum DO and 4NT exists only in Buddhism .. yes I know and do not disagree ..)

Detailed steps of Hindu practice http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-list.htm

Cheatsheet http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras.htm

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:55 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:15 am
How similar is it to Buddhist practice (compare practice to practice ..
The Buddhist path is lead by wisdom or Right View (MN 117). Without wisdom --- precepts, sense control & samadhi are difficult to achieve. As for ' asana', in Buddhism, there are four, namely, sitting, standing, walking & lying down. In general, seeking 'the divine' is not really the same as seeking the end of suffering because the suffering (& its causes) which is be ended is something clearly known.

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:02 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:55 am
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:15 am
How similar is it to Buddhist practice (compare practice to practice ..
It does not appear similar at all, even though it arose after Buddhism. The Buddhist path is lead by wisdom or Right View (MN 117). Without wisdom ---
precepts, sense control & samadhi are difficult to achieve. As for ' asana', in Buddhism, there are four, namely, sitting, standing, walking & lying down.
"And what is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the cessation of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view."

DN 22 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How can knowledge with regard to origination of stress, cessation of stress come before practice [The Buddhist path is lead by wisdom or Right View (MN 117)]?

You might say Buddhist practice leads to Right View but not that Buddhists begin practice with Right View. Right View is panna and comes last of all along with Right Resolve.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:37 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:02 am
How can knowledge with regard to origination of stress, cessation of stress come before practice [The Buddhist path is lead by wisdom or Right View (MN 117)]?

You might say Buddhist practice leads to Right View but not that Buddhists begin practice with Right View. Right View is panna and comes last of all along with Right Resolve.
Sorry but Right View comes first. Practise cannot occur aimlessly.
The Blessed One said: Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Of those, right view is the forerunner.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are, that is, Right Understanding. Samyutta Nikaya 56.37

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... erstanding

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 am

DooDoot wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:37 am
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:02 am
How can knowledge with regard to origination of stress, cessation of stress come before practice [The Buddhist path is lead by wisdom or Right View (MN 117)]?

You might say Buddhist practice leads to Right View but not that Buddhists begin practice with Right View. Right View is panna and comes last of all along with Right Resolve.
Sorry but Right View comes first. Practise cannot occur aimlessly.
The Blessed One said: Now what, monks, is noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions? Any singleness of mind equipped with these seven factors — right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, & right mindfulness — is called noble right concentration with its supports & requisite conditions.

Of those, right view is the forerunner.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Bhikkhus, this is the forerunner and precursor of the rising of the sun, that is, the dawn. So too, bhikkhus, for a bhikkhu this is the forerunner and precursor of the breakthrough to the Four Noble Truths as they really are, that is, Right Understanding. Samyutta Nikaya 56.37

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title= ... erstanding
I am confused. Can anyone weigh in .. how does panna come before practice? We practice to gain panna not the other way around

Image

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4092
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:11 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 am
I am confused. Can anyone weigh in .. how does panna come before practice? We practice to gain panna not the other way around
This point seems to be one of those endlessly debatable topics. I suspect that the two viewpoints on this (panna coming first, versus panna being the culmination of the practice) are talking about two different things, or at least two stages of development of the faculty. Putting it first emphasises that one requires mundane Right View (as per MN 117 quoted above) in order to discern that the practice can actually help one, and also to discern what the other path factors are. Ajahn Thanissaro is using it in this way when he says this kind of thing:
all the teachings derived from a few very basic, very commonsensical principles. You might call it wisdom for dummies: the kind of wisdom that comes from looking at what's actually going on in your life, asking some very basic questions, and applying a few very basic principles to solve your big problems.

When you use wisdom for dummies, it doesn't mean you're dumb. It means you recognize that you've been foolish and you want to wise up. As the Buddha once said, when you recognize your foolishness, you are to that extent wise. This may sound obvious, but when you think about it, you see that it teaches you some important things about wisdom.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... fordummies

Those who put wisdom last, near the end of the path, tend to be talking about the ability to penetrate the 4NT and gain direct gnosis. This would appear to be either some different quality, or the same mental faculty of discernment developed to a higher level or directed more proficiently. There is sutta support for both of them.

A question for you, No_Mind. In the list you provided about Hindu practice, there are a couple of terms that are the same as those used by Buddhists, but which appear to be used differently. For example, niyama, samadhi, and dhyana. Does this cause problems in switching between two related meanings? I have sometimes noticed when talking to Indians (Hindu and Buddhist converts) that they will be puzzled by a term I use, then suddenly get what I mean, correct my pronunciation, and sometimes appear a bit uneasy about me using it in that way. Then the politeness kicks in and they go along with it!

Anyway, thanks for some interesting material.

SarathW
Posts: 9770
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:06 am

I think the main difference in Buddhism is that it is the only religion teach not self-nature of existence.
As you know Sadghguru having a great following. He is a very intelligent person.
Even he got the Buddha's teaching wrong.
According to him, Hinuism is a bottomless pit and a Buddhism is a pit with a bottom.


“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

paul
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue May 31, 2011 11:27 pm
Location: Vietnam

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by paul » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:07 am

"Perplexity sometimes arises over an apparent inconsistency in the arrangement of the path factors and the threefold training. Wisdom — which includes right view and right intention — is the last stage in the threefold training, yet its factors are placed at the beginning of the path rather than at its end, as might be expected according to the canon of strict consistency. The sequence of the path factors, however, is not the result of a careless slip, but is determined by an important logistical consideration, namely, that right view and right intention of a preliminary type are called for at the outset as the spur for entering the threefold training. Right view provides the perspective for practice, right intention the sense of direction. But the two do not expire in this preparatory role. For when the mind has been refined by the training in moral discipline and concentration, it arrives at a superior right view and right intention, which now form the proper training in the higher wisdom."---"The Noble Eightfold Path", Bikkhu Bodhi.

SarathW
Posts: 9770
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 am

Extract from No-minds reference.
Ignorance (avidya) is of four types: 1) regarding that which is transient as eternal, 2) mistaking the impure for pure, 3) thinking that which brings misery to bring happiness, and 4) taking that which is not-self to be self.

It appears this is a copy of Buddha's teaching.
If not what is not-self in Hinduism?

http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-list.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
Posts: 5468
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by binocular » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 am
I am confused. Can anyone weigh in .. how does panna come before practice? We practice to gain panna not the other way around
The eight path factors are to be practiced in tandem, parallel, each one to some extent.
Not one after another; as in "first one completes one factor, and then moves on to another".

SarathW
Posts: 9770
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by SarathW » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:34 am

binocular wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:27 am
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 am
I am confused. Can anyone weigh in .. how does panna come before practice? We practice to gain panna not the other way around
The eight path factors are to be practiced in tandem, parallel, each one to some extent.
Not one after another; as in "first one completes one factor, and then moves on to another".
Agree.
Noble Eightfold Path is not linear.
It is cyclic.
Panna has different levels.
To start the practice you have some level of Panna.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2100
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Zom » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:49 am

I am confused. Can anyone weigh in .. how does panna come before practice? We practice to gain panna not the other way around
If we take suttas, there are 2 levels of pannya, initial and final. No "in-between", really. Final one is that of arahantship, transcendental wisdom. Initial one is that one leading to stream-entry (you should have it from the very start, or there's not really much you can do to develop it fast enough - the way here is "asking questions", as a kammical way to increase it [MN 135]). If your initial wisdom is weak, you won't even attain stream-entry.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 4092
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:20 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:06 am
I think the main difference in Buddhism is that it is the only religion teach not self-nature of existence.
I think that's certainly how the Buddha himself saw it when talking to his contemporaries:
Though certain recluses and brahmans claim to propound the full understanding of all kinds of clinging... they describe the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self. They do not understand one instance... therefore they describe only the full understanding of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a doctrine of self.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-8

User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 1911
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:39 am

SarathW wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:22 am
Extract from No-minds reference.
Ignorance (avidya) is of four types: 1) regarding that which is transient as eternal, 2) mistaking the impure for pure, 3) thinking that which brings misery to bring happiness, and 4) taking that which is not-self to be self.

It appears this is a copy of Buddha's teaching.
If not what is not-self in Hinduism?

http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-list.htm
Taking that which is not self to be the self .. not to identify with I-ness (I am doing, I am not doing), not to identify with our moods. I am not my body, I am not my thoughts .. within me is something that is pure, blissful, eternal and unchanging .. that is me.
"Owing to an absence of discrimination, there continues a natural human behaviour in the form of 'I am this' or 'This is mine'; this is avidya." Adi Shankaracharya
Edit Add - Asmita (Sanskrit., 'I am-ness'). The error in Hinduism of supposing that the immediately experienced self is the true self: it is one of four kinds of error or ignorance (avidyā), to be overcome in yoga.
from The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions


I cannot see anything Buddhist about it. Entire Indian subcontinent was obsessed with the nature of self (and Divine).

Problem with some Buddhists is .. they are used to seeing Tapirs everywhere around their house

Image

and when they see an elephant they cannot think beyond .. wow what a big Tapir

Image

Open your eyes dude and actually see .. that is whole different animal that also has a trunk.

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:58 pm, edited 5 times in total.
I know one thing: that I know nothing

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2499
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Hindu Practice Vs Buddhist Practice

Post by DooDoot » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:43 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:51 am
I am confused. Can anyone weigh in .. how does panna come before practice? We practice to gain panna not the other way around
If you don't understand the eightfold path, how can you start to practise? If you don't know attachment & craving are the causes of suffering, how will you know what to abandon or how to practise? If you don't have the life experience (panna) that leads to being willing to give up craving & attachment, how will you have faith in the teachings? Its pretty simple. Its like having a map so you find your way to New York. :heart:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 61 guests