Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Upeksha
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Upeksha » Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:50 am

I think it is important to consider the way both have been 'reconstructed' through the 19th-20th century, in lieu of colonialism, various scholarly and translation projects etc.

The quest for authenticity is indeed somewhat fruitless, given the very large gap between oral transmission and written text (and this clearly applies to both) - but there is a very modernist (some call it Protestant) urge to 'get back to the original texts' in order to uncover 'the real Buddha (or Buddhism).'

Do they need each other?

How could they not. Simply because both take refuge in the triple gem as their core practice, and if this does not make them brothers/sisters, then I don't know what does. Siblings are always a bit different and a bit the same.

Actually, I extend this kind of thinking to yogis/yoginis in other Dharmic traditions, because in this rather crazy world, people who are genuinely contemplating samsara/moksha are rare, precious and aligned in a rather obvious way.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:57 am

Upeksha wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:50 am
I think it is important to consider the way both have been 'reconstructed' through the 19th-20th century, in lieu of colonialism, various scholarly and translation projects etc.
Can you give some more examples as to what you mean here?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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dylanj
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dylanj » Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:35 am

:computerproblem:
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Upeksha
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Upeksha » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:34 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:57 am
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:50 am
I think it is important to consider the way both have been 'reconstructed' through the 19th-20th century, in lieu of colonialism, various scholarly and translation projects etc.
Can you give some more examples as to what you mean here?
It's a very big topic, and I suppose controversial.....and I am no expert on the matter.

One example would be the way Japanese Zen presented itself as in harmony with modern science in the late 19th century. An excellent work on the topic can be found here:

https://www.amazon.com/Presenting-Japan ... 0807854581

On a more Theravadan front, many have argued that the relationship between philology - as an academic discipline - and the text as 'the' site for truth is also a very Protestant influence on western approaches to Buddha-dharma.

To offer but two examples for you.

Upeksha
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Upeksha » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:35 am

Perhaps a more obvious one to consider is Tich Naht Hanh/Plum Village - a Dharmic response to the chaos of colonialism and war in Vietnam in the 20th century. i.e. the emergence of 'engaged' Buddhism as a response to very particular political conditions.

Bhikkhu Bodhi has made great contributions to this stream too - and perhaps in the west, no one has been more influential in translating and explaining the Suttas then he.....

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dylanj
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am

mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

James Tan
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by James Tan » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:25 pm

dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
If that is the case , since Theravada do not need Mahayana and can't coexist with Mahayana , to be fair any Theravada bodies or organizations with its other existing form should not accept whatever kind of contributions and donations from all the Mahayana lays and monastics .
:reading:

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:29 pm

dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
Obviously your getting-angry-and-smashing-a-computer emoticon did little to abate your fury.

Get it all out in one good post. A million tiny barbs here and there can't slay the evil Mahayana dragon.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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dylanj
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dylanj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:51 pm

James Tan wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:25 pm
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
If that is the case , since Theravada do not need Mahayana and can't coexist with Mahayana , to be fair any Theravada bodies or organizations with its other existing form should not accept whatever kind of contributions and donations from all the Mahayana lays and monastics .
Why would that be the case? I don't agree. Theravada can accept their donations while maintaining opposition to their views.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Upeksha
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:02 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
Big claims my friend. What precisely was 'fake' about one side of the split during the second council?

And: could you really look genuine Mahayana practitioners, monks, nuns, abbots and scholars in the eye and say "you are a force leading to the death of the dhamma?" Or is it just something that the comfort of internet anonymity entitles you to say?

James Tan
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by James Tan » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:17 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:51 pm
James Tan wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:25 pm
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
If that is the case , since Theravada do not need Mahayana and can't coexist with Mahayana , to be fair any Theravada bodies or organizations with its other existing form should not accept whatever kind of contributions and donations from all the Mahayana lays and monastics .
Why would that be the case? I don't agree. Theravada can accept their donations while maintaining opposition to their views.
It is ironic that is like the Muslim they against non Muslims gambling but it is Halal to tax on them !
And use the dirty money to build mosque .

By the way , there were too many Mahayana (bodhisattva) practitioners in the Theravada traditions .
:reading:

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dylanj
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:08 pm

Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:02 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
Big claims my friend. What precisely was 'fake' about one side of the split during the second council?

And: could you really look genuine Mahayana practitioners, monks, nuns, abbots and scholars in the eye and say "you are a force leading to the death of the dhamma?" Or is it just something that the comfort of internet anonymity entitles you to say?
:strawman:

you should restrain your anger friend.

I said mahayana, not mahayanists, you making this out to be a personal grudge I have is a projection & has nothing to do with my view.

this is a theravadin forum ffs who would've thought i'd get challenged on this here.

Mahayana has loads of teachings & doctrines that contradict the suttas. That is what is killing the Dhamma, not necessarily every individual in these traditions. But the Buddha himself said this is how the Dhamma would die. Read Ani sutta.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:18 pm

dylanj wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:08 pm
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:02 am
dylanj wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:06 am
mahayana is fake & a force leading to the death of the dhamma
Big claims my friend. What precisely was 'fake' about one side of the split during the second council?

And: could you really look genuine Mahayana practitioners, monks, nuns, abbots and scholars in the eye and say "you are a force leading to the death of the dhamma?" Or is it just something that the comfort of internet anonymity entitles you to say?
:strawman:

you should restrain your anger friend.

I said mahayana, not mahayanists, you making this out to be a personal grudge I have is a projection & has nothing to do with my view.

this is a theravadin forum ffs who would've thought i'd get challenged on this here.

Mahayana has loads of teachings & doctrines that contradict the suttas. That is what is killing the Dhamma, not necessarily every individual in these traditions. But the Buddha himself said this is how the Dhamma would die. Read Ani sutta.
Anger?

As in, if I don't assent to your flippant opinion then it must be anger which underpins my response?? Rather than, perhaps, reason?

Go ahead, point out the contradictions.

Start with the Vinaya. Then compare the Abhidhamma with the Abhidharma. Then move into the shastras. If you're so sure, follow up your words with with some kind of argument.

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dylanj
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dylanj » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:20 pm

Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:18 pm
dylanj wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:08 pm
Upeksha wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:02 am


Big claims my friend. What precisely was 'fake' about one side of the split during the second council?

And: could you really look genuine Mahayana practitioners, monks, nuns, abbots and scholars in the eye and say "you are a force leading to the death of the dhamma?" Or is it just something that the comfort of internet anonymity entitles you to say?
:strawman:

you should restrain your anger friend.

I said mahayana, not mahayanists, you making this out to be a personal grudge I have is a projection & has nothing to do with my view.

this is a theravadin forum ffs who would've thought i'd get challenged on this here.

Mahayana has loads of teachings & doctrines that contradict the suttas. That is what is killing the Dhamma, not necessarily every individual in these traditions. But the Buddha himself said this is how the Dhamma would die. Read Ani sutta.
Anger?

As in, if I don't assent to your flippant opinion then it must be anger which underpins my response?? Rather than, perhaps, reason?

Go ahead, point out the contradictions.

Start with the Vinaya. Then compare the Abhidhamma with the Abhidharma. Then move into the shastras. If you're so sure, follow up your words with with some kind of argument.
here's one quote that tears down the fundamental basis of Mahayana:
"I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ānanda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathāgata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back." (Dīgha Nikāya 16)
I'm not going to give you more than that, this is a theravada forum & I come here to avoid Mahayanists.

yes I think it's clear your speech is harsh & indicative of frustration.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

Upeksha
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Upeksha » Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:43 pm

Well, let's leave it for the other posters to judge who is involved with harsh speech here......

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