Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 am

Actually, I can see where you are coming from, from a certain angle. Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours, but they are definitely members of a different saṃgha, namely the Dharmaguptaka. Calling them "not monks" is a bit of a innovation on your part, as even in debates and sectarian polemics with Mahāyānists from India the Theravāda Venerables still acknowledged their adherence to the vinaya. They are still monks. They are just ordained under a different lineage, like the śrāvaka bhikṣuṇyaḥ ordained by the Dalai Lama. They may or may not practice Mahāyāna Buddhism.

That being said, they are subject to, and obedient to, from a legalistic view, senior Mahāyāna saṃgha members, but they are not restricted in their practice of Buddhism.

They are not part of the same saṃgha as those operational in Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

binocular
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by binocular » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:17 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 am
Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours,
Malcolm, too, once said that Mahayana is a religion in its own right. I couldn't find an exact reference (but we could ask him, I suppose ...).

This is the closest I could find:
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:47 pm
tellyontellyon wrote:Buddhism isn't a 'revealed' religion...
Mahāyāna Buddhism most certainly is.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Zom
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Zom » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:13 pm

This is thinking that is foreign to Buddhism. Vinaya-observance is vinaya-observance. Sangha schisms occur over vinaya-observance.
No of course. Schism may occur because of disagreements both in Dhamma and/or Vinaya.
And where are these Mahāyāna authorities, nonetheless Vajrayāna ones, who reject the ordination of śrāvakāḥ?
Shravakas? If you mean theravadins, then these authorities may accept their ordination, but they don't consider them as a part of their own Sanghas. Just in a same way they accept ordination of catholic monks, but don't consider them as a part of their own Sanghas. No difference here.
Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours,
They are different in a way, for example, how Mormons differ from Russian Orthodox Christians. Two different religions with different everything. Of course you can still say "they are both christians", but this is just sloppy label which means nothing.
but they are definitely members of a different saṃgha, namely the Dharmaguptaka.
There is no such thing as "Dharmaguptaka sangha", because Dharmaguptaka has disappeared some 1000+ years ago.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:42 pm

In relation to this point only
Zom wrote:ordination is invalid
"Ordination is invalid" for participation in a traditional or older Theravāda saṅgha, like the Thai State-Saṅgha, or those out of Sri Lanka, pending some sort of invitation.

"Ordination is invalid" in general though, is an absurd value statement. Related to this:

Zom wrote:There is no such thing as "Dharmaguptaka sangha", because Dharmaguptaka has disappeared some 1000+ years ago.

The Dharmaguptaka saṅgha consists overwhelmingly mostly of Mahāyāna vinaya-observers, it endures to this day every bit as much as the various Theravāda lineages. It is as internally diverse as any saṅgha using the Pāli vinaya. It is much more historically substantiated, than for instance Dhammayuttikanikāya or Mahānikāya.

Still, they are not members of the same saṅgha as most Theravāda practitioners. They are bhikṣuṇyaḥ, however. Any opinion to the contrary is just that, a value judgement on fellow dharma practitioners practicing, of all things, the same Pāli Theravāda as yourself.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

chownah
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by chownah » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am

For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am
For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

chownah
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by chownah » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am
For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
I once did my own very half fast study of monastic lineage to see what the buddha said about it. He didn't say much. The only thing I could find that he had to say about lineage was in a statement he made to his father that he was no longer of his families lineage but rather he was of the lineage of noble ones.......which means sort of like he is of a lineage of attitude and doe not involve any sort of ordination at all.
You seem to be an academic type. I would be interested in hearing what you could find about the buddha's attitudes towards lineage if you are interested....maybe I missed something important....I didn't do a very throrough job and I'm really a farmer so my patience is sometimes short with academic endeavors......(lazy).....
chownah

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am
For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
I once did my own very half fast study of monastic lineage to see what the buddha said about it. He didn't say much. The only thing I could find that he had to say about lineage was in a statement he made to his father that he was no longer of his families lineage but rather he was of the lineage of noble ones.......which means sort of like he is of a lineage of attitude and doe not involve any sort of ordination at all.
You seem to be an academic type. I would be interested in hearing what you could find about the buddha's attitudes towards lineage if you are interested....maybe I missed something important....I didn't do a very throrough job and I'm really a farmer so my patience is sometimes short with academic endeavors......(lazy).....
chownah
Consider his words defining what a "true" Brahmin is. He basically argues that Brahmins are to be judged according to their merits, not their birth.

I was guess he would have similar statements about a nun's practices, a nun's observance, vs their ordination lineage.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:34 pm

I'll give you a better "academic" answer, with citations and whatnot, in a few.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

dharmacorps
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:50 am

Thanissaro Bhikkhu refers to "Buddhist religions". That would Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, could be considered different religions, but all Buddhist. I don't have a problem with that description. As a Thervadin, when I listen to a talk from a Mahayana, Zen, or Vajrayana teacher, I will sometimes feel very out of place because the teachings conflict with my understanding of dhamma. Then the next moment I will hear something that feels very familiar. It might permit us some sectarian discomfort if we think of Mahayana and Vajrayana as Buddhist Religions like ours, but perhaps sometimes fairly different in practice and method.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by James Tan » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:50 am
Thanissaro Bhikkhu refers to "Buddhist religions". That would Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, could be considered different religions, but all Buddhist. I don't have a problem with that description. As a Thervadin, when I listen to a talk from a Mahayana, Zen, or Vajrayana teacher, I will sometimes feel very out of place because the teachings conflict with my understanding of dhamma. Then the next moment I will hear something that feels very familiar. It might permit us some sectarian discomfort if we think of Mahayana and Vajrayana as Buddhist Religions like ours, but perhaps sometimes fairly different in practice and method.
If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .

dharmacorps
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:54 pm

James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm
If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
RIght, that's a example of what I was saying-- a description of the state of nibbana which is somewhat fundamentally ineffable in the Pali Canon IS described in other Buddhist religions. Sometimes they don't even seem like the same religion because of those vast differences.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:42 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:54 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm
If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
RIght, that's a example of what I was saying-- a description of the state of nibbana which is somewhat fundamentally ineffable in the Pali Canon IS described in other Buddhist religions. Sometimes they don't even seem like the same religion because of those vast differences.
Can you elaborate? Which interpretations of nibbāna do u refer to? Abiding and non-abiding?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:54 pm


Saengnapha
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:13 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:42 pm
dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:54 pm
James Tan wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm
If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
RIght, that's a example of what I was saying-- a description of the state of nibbana which is somewhat fundamentally ineffable in the Pali Canon IS described in other Buddhist religions. Sometimes they don't even seem like the same religion because of those vast differences.
Can you elaborate? Which interpretations of nibbāna do u refer to? Abiding and non-abiding?
It seems like ineffability is common throughout all religions when talking about a transcendent reality no matter what it is called.

If we take Nagarjuna's writings as the definitive 'view' on Mahayana, does he talk about abiding or non-abiding as the descriptive for Nibbana?

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