Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
alan
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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by alan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:49 am

bodom wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:38 pm
Theravada most certainly does not need the Mahayana. I would go as far as to say the Mahayana needs the Theravada to retain any semblance as to what the Buddha originally taught and what Buddhism is all about, the fundamental teachings.

:namaste:
Totally agree.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 05, 2018 5:02 am

alan wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:43 am
Which ones?
Can you name them? Where did you get this story?
Not that you know . Do you know bhikkhu vupasama ?

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:17 pm

Dharmaguptaka isn't Mahayana. Most monks and nuns ordained in the Dharmaguptaka lineage practice Mahayana, but the Dharmaguptaka vinaya has no Mahayana content within.

The Dharmaguptaka vinaya predates Mahayana considerably. It is a shravaka vinaya, not a bodhisattva vinaya.

If they are ordained and observe vinaya. They are monks/nuns. Regardless of whatever sectarian want to fabricate. The Pali vinaya is a translation from an earlier Prakrit prototype. The Dharmaguptaka is a translation from an earlier Prakrit source. Both are largely the same. Both are early vinayas.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:10 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:40 pm
Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:42 pm
said repeatedly that Theravada acts like a religion
I think all Buddhism that ive seen has been Like that with exception of;

- The Youtube Channel Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu.

As he takes questions, does not cherry pick questions, leaving all content open to challenge.

- This forum.

There are things i dont like but i think it is the best learning platform.

Here are
Householders learned in Nikayas,
Householderes learned in a Pitaka,
Householders versed in Tipitaka,
Householders capabale of recollecting passages and discussing etymological and semantical problems
Householders versed in Pali,
Householders trained in logic, sciences and communication
Householders who have various meditative attainments

Format allows for a civil discussion, free speech and content can be edited and polished into Gems but needs directed effort.
Forum vulnerability is multi-accounting, trolling and uncontained inappropriate speech. It is also a wall of mostly unedited text.

- Stackexchange. Good enough as is imo for simple Q/A.

- Sutta Central. Awesome even tho they allow any low quality translation to be uploaded without any specification.
:goodpost:
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Zom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:03 pm

Dharmaguptaka isn't Mahayana. Most monks and nuns ordained in the Dharmaguptaka lineage practice Mahayana, but the Dharmaguptaka vinaya has no Mahayana content within.
And mahayana isn't a school at all. This is, well, just a whole new religion, where Vajrayana is still yet another one. Monks of one religion can't belong to a community of monks of another religion.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:36 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:03 pm
Dharmaguptaka isn't Mahayana. Most monks and nuns ordained in the Dharmaguptaka lineage practice Mahayana, but the Dharmaguptaka vinaya has no Mahayana content within.
And mahayana isn't a school at all. This is, well, just a whole new religion, where Vajrayana is still yet another one. Monks of one religion can't belong to a community of monks of another religion.
Dharmaguptaka is not Mahāyāna. Nor is it Vajrayāna. Dharmaguptaka is not a "different religion" than Buddhism. It is a set of ordination vows.

What about the Dharmaguptaka prātimokṣa makes it illegitimate to you? How is it substantially different from the Pāli?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Zom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:31 pm

Dharmaguptaka is not Mahāyāna. Nor is it Vajrayāna. Dharmaguptaka is not a "different religion" than Buddhism. It is a set of ordination vows.

What about the Dharmaguptaka prātimokṣa makes it illegitimate to you? How is it substantially different from the Pāli?
Okay, right now there is no Dharmaguptaka. There is Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Theravada.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:44 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:31 pm
Dharmaguptaka is not Mahāyāna. Nor is it Vajrayāna. Dharmaguptaka is not a "different religion" than Buddhism. It is a set of ordination vows.

What about the Dharmaguptaka prātimokṣa makes it illegitimate to you? How is it substantially different from the Pāli?
Okay, right now there is no Dharmaguptaka. There is Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Theravada.
Dharmaguptaka is an unbroken lineage of vinaya-observers. No more unbroken than the Theravāda lineage. Nothing more, nothing less.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Zom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:17 pm

There is no such thing as "vinaya-observance" taken alone. There are very different distinct Buddhist traditions which must be taken as a whole. You can't just throw away all doctrinal part. Actually, a sangha with monks who have unsolved disputes can't carry out any procedures. At first they must be sure they don't have disagreements on both Dhamma and Vinaya (which is virtually impossible for present theravadin-mahayanic assembly).

This is the reason why all these modern women ordinations are viewed as invalid by all Sangha heads - including mahayana and vajrayana leaders.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:16 pm

Zom wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:17 pm
There is no such thing as "vinaya-observance" taken alone. There are very different distinct Buddhist traditions which must be taken as a whole. You can't just throw away all doctrinal part. Actually, a sangha with monks who have unsolved disputes can't carry out any procedures. At first they must be sure they don't have disagreements on both Dhamma and Vinaya (which is virtually impossible for present theravadin-mahayanic assembly).

This is the reason why all these modern women ordinations are viewed as invalid by all Sangha heads - including mahayana and vajrayana leaders.
This is thinking that is foreign to Buddhism. Vinaya-observance is vinaya-observance. Sangha schisms occur over vinaya-observance.

And where are these Mahāyāna authorities, nonetheless Vajrayāna ones, who reject the ordination of śrāvakāḥ?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 am

Actually, I can see where you are coming from, from a certain angle. Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours, but they are definitely members of a different saṃgha, namely the Dharmaguptaka. Calling them "not monks" is a bit of a innovation on your part, as even in debates and sectarian polemics with Mahāyānists from India the Theravāda Venerables still acknowledged their adherence to the vinaya. They are still monks. They are just ordained under a different lineage, like the śrāvaka bhikṣuṇyaḥ ordained by the Dalai Lama. They may or may not practice Mahāyāna Buddhism.

That being said, they are subject to, and obedient to, from a legalistic view, senior Mahāyāna saṃgha members, but they are not restricted in their practice of Buddhism.

They are not part of the same saṃgha as those operational in Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by binocular » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:17 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 am
Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours,
Malcolm, too, once said that Mahayana is a religion in its own right. I couldn't find an exact reference (but we could ask him, I suppose ...).

This is the closest I could find:
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:47 pm
tellyontellyon wrote:Buddhism isn't a 'revealed' religion...
Mahāyāna Buddhism most certainly is.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Zom » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:13 pm

This is thinking that is foreign to Buddhism. Vinaya-observance is vinaya-observance. Sangha schisms occur over vinaya-observance.
No of course. Schism may occur because of disagreements both in Dhamma and/or Vinaya.
And where are these Mahāyāna authorities, nonetheless Vajrayāna ones, who reject the ordination of śrāvakāḥ?
Shravakas? If you mean theravadins, then these authorities may accept their ordination, but they don't consider them as a part of their own Sanghas. Just in a same way they accept ordination of catholic monks, but don't consider them as a part of their own Sanghas. No difference here.
Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours,
They are different in a way, for example, how Mormons differ from Russian Orthodox Christians. Two different religions with different everything. Of course you can still say "they are both christians", but this is just sloppy label which means nothing.
but they are definitely members of a different saṃgha, namely the Dharmaguptaka.
There is no such thing as "Dharmaguptaka sangha", because Dharmaguptaka has disappeared some 1000+ years ago.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:42 pm

In relation to this point only
Zom wrote:ordination is invalid
"Ordination is invalid" for participation in a traditional or older Theravāda saṅgha, like the Thai State-Saṅgha, or those out of Sri Lanka, pending some sort of invitation.

"Ordination is invalid" in general though, is an absurd value statement. Related to this:

Zom wrote:There is no such thing as "Dharmaguptaka sangha", because Dharmaguptaka has disappeared some 1000+ years ago.

The Dharmaguptaka saṅgha consists overwhelmingly mostly of Mahāyāna vinaya-observers, it endures to this day every bit as much as the various Theravāda lineages. It is as internally diverse as any saṅgha using the Pāli vinaya. It is much more historically substantiated, than for instance Dhammayuttikanikāya or Mahānikāya.

Still, they are not members of the same saṅgha as most Theravāda practitioners. They are bhikṣuṇyaḥ, however. Any opinion to the contrary is just that, a value judgement on fellow dharma practitioners practicing, of all things, the same Pāli Theravāda as yourself.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by chownah » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am

For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am
For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by chownah » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:01 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am
For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
I once did my own very half fast study of monastic lineage to see what the buddha said about it. He didn't say much. The only thing I could find that he had to say about lineage was in a statement he made to his father that he was no longer of his families lineage but rather he was of the lineage of noble ones.......which means sort of like he is of a lineage of attitude and doe not involve any sort of ordination at all.
You seem to be an academic type. I would be interested in hearing what you could find about the buddha's attitudes towards lineage if you are interested....maybe I missed something important....I didn't do a very throrough job and I'm really a farmer so my patience is sometimes short with academic endeavors......(lazy).....
chownah

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am
For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
I once did my own very half fast study of monastic lineage to see what the buddha said about it. He didn't say much. The only thing I could find that he had to say about lineage was in a statement he made to his father that he was no longer of his families lineage but rather he was of the lineage of noble ones.......which means sort of like he is of a lineage of attitude and doe not involve any sort of ordination at all.
You seem to be an academic type. I would be interested in hearing what you could find about the buddha's attitudes towards lineage if you are interested....maybe I missed something important....I didn't do a very throrough job and I'm really a farmer so my patience is sometimes short with academic endeavors......(lazy).....
chownah
Consider his words defining what a "true" Brahmin is. He basically argues that Brahmins are to be judged according to their merits, not their birth.

I was guess he would have similar statements about a nun's practices, a nun's observance, vs their ordination lineage.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:34 pm

I'll give you a better "academic" answer, with citations and whatnot, in a few.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:50 am

Thanissaro Bhikkhu refers to "Buddhist religions". That would Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, could be considered different religions, but all Buddhist. I don't have a problem with that description. As a Thervadin, when I listen to a talk from a Mahayana, Zen, or Vajrayana teacher, I will sometimes feel very out of place because the teachings conflict with my understanding of dhamma. Then the next moment I will hear something that feels very familiar. It might permit us some sectarian discomfort if we think of Mahayana and Vajrayana as Buddhist Religions like ours, but perhaps sometimes fairly different in practice and method.

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