Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu »

Actually, I can see where you are coming from, from a certain angle. Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours, but they are definitely members of a different saṃgha, namely the Dharmaguptaka. Calling them "not monks" is a bit of a innovation on your part, as even in debates and sectarian polemics with Mahāyānists from India the Theravāda Venerables still acknowledged their adherence to the vinaya. They are still monks. They are just ordained under a different lineage, like the śrāvaka bhikṣuṇyaḥ ordained by the Dalai Lama. They may or may not practice Mahāyāna Buddhism.

That being said, they are subject to, and obedient to, from a legalistic view, senior Mahāyāna saṃgha members, but they are not restricted in their practice of Buddhism.

They are not part of the same saṃgha as those operational in Thailand, Sri Lanka, etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by binocular »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:04 amFraming it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours,
Malcolm, too, once said that Mahayana is a religion in its own right. I couldn't find an exact reference (but we could ask him, I suppose ...).

This is the closest I could find:
Malcolm wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:47 pm
tellyontellyon wrote:Buddhism isn't a 'revealed' religion...
Mahāyāna Buddhism most certainly is.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 2712
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Zom »

This is thinking that is foreign to Buddhism. Vinaya-observance is vinaya-observance. Sangha schisms occur over vinaya-observance.
No of course. Schism may occur because of disagreements both in Dhamma and/or Vinaya.
And where are these Mahāyāna authorities, nonetheless Vajrayāna ones, who reject the ordination of śrāvakāḥ?
Shravakas? If you mean theravadins, then these authorities may accept their ordination, but they don't consider them as a part of their own Sanghas. Just in a same way they accept ordination of catholic monks, but don't consider them as a part of their own Sanghas. No difference here.
Framing it as "a different religion" is certainly a personal opinion of yours,
They are different in a way, for example, how Mormons differ from Russian Orthodox Christians. Two different religions with different everything. Of course you can still say "they are both christians", but this is just sloppy label which means nothing.
but they are definitely members of a different saṃgha, namely the Dharmaguptaka.
There is no such thing as "Dharmaguptaka sangha", because Dharmaguptaka has disappeared some 1000+ years ago.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu »

In relation to this point only
Zom wrote:ordination is invalid
"Ordination is invalid" for participation in a traditional or older Theravāda saṅgha, like the Thai State-Saṅgha, or those out of Sri Lanka, pending some sort of invitation.

"Ordination is invalid" in general though, is an absurd value statement. Related to this:

Zom wrote:There is no such thing as "Dharmaguptaka sangha", because Dharmaguptaka has disappeared some 1000+ years ago.

The Dharmaguptaka saṅgha consists overwhelmingly mostly of Mahāyāna vinaya-observers, it endures to this day every bit as much as the various Theravāda lineages. It is as internally diverse as any saṅgha using the Pāli vinaya. It is much more historically substantiated, than for instance Dhammayuttikanikāya or Mahānikāya.

Still, they are not members of the same saṅgha as most Theravāda practitioners. They are bhikṣuṇyaḥ, however. Any opinion to the contrary is just that, a value judgement on fellow dharma practitioners practicing, of all things, the same Pāli Theravāda as yourself.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by chownah »

For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu »

chownah wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by chownah »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm
chownah wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
I once did my own very half fast study of monastic lineage to see what the buddha said about it. He didn't say much. The only thing I could find that he had to say about lineage was in a statement he made to his father that he was no longer of his families lineage but rather he was of the lineage of noble ones.......which means sort of like he is of a lineage of attitude and doe not involve any sort of ordination at all.
You seem to be an academic type. I would be interested in hearing what you could find about the buddha's attitudes towards lineage if you are interested....maybe I missed something important....I didn't do a very throrough job and I'm really a farmer so my patience is sometimes short with academic endeavors......(lazy).....
chownah
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu »

chownah wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:01 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:43 pm
chownah wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:58 am For many the belief in monastic lineage is an empty ritual and they take the buddha's advise and don't indulge in it.
chownah
Precisely why Theravada nuns have valid ordinations IMO. Still, sectarians like to harp.

Just let monastics practice. Regardless of ordination lineage.
I once did my own very half fast study of monastic lineage to see what the buddha said about it. He didn't say much. The only thing I could find that he had to say about lineage was in a statement he made to his father that he was no longer of his families lineage but rather he was of the lineage of noble ones.......which means sort of like he is of a lineage of attitude and doe not involve any sort of ordination at all.
You seem to be an academic type. I would be interested in hearing what you could find about the buddha's attitudes towards lineage if you are interested....maybe I missed something important....I didn't do a very throrough job and I'm really a farmer so my patience is sometimes short with academic endeavors......(lazy).....
chownah
Consider his words defining what a "true" Brahmin is. He basically argues that Brahmins are to be judged according to their merits, not their birth.

I was guess he would have similar statements about a nun's practices, a nun's observance, vs their ordination lineage.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'll give you a better "academic" answer, with citations and whatnot, in a few.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dharmacorps »

Thanissaro Bhikkhu refers to "Buddhist religions". That would Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, could be considered different religions, but all Buddhist. I don't have a problem with that description. As a Thervadin, when I listen to a talk from a Mahayana, Zen, or Vajrayana teacher, I will sometimes feel very out of place because the teachings conflict with my understanding of dhamma. Then the next moment I will hear something that feels very familiar. It might permit us some sectarian discomfort if we think of Mahayana and Vajrayana as Buddhist Religions like ours, but perhaps sometimes fairly different in practice and method.
sentinel
Posts: 3236
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:26 pm

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by sentinel »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 1:50 am Thanissaro Bhikkhu refers to "Buddhist religions". That would Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana, could be considered different religions, but all Buddhist. I don't have a problem with that description. As a Thervadin, when I listen to a talk from a Mahayana, Zen, or Vajrayana teacher, I will sometimes feel very out of place because the teachings conflict with my understanding of dhamma. Then the next moment I will hear something that feels very familiar. It might permit us some sectarian discomfort if we think of Mahayana and Vajrayana as Buddhist Religions like ours, but perhaps sometimes fairly different in practice and method.
If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by dharmacorps »

James Tan wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
RIght, that's a example of what I was saying-- a description of the state of nibbana which is somewhat fundamentally ineffable in the Pali Canon IS described in other Buddhist religions. Sometimes they don't even seem like the same religion because of those vast differences.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Coëmgenu »

dharmacorps wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:54 pm
James Tan wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
RIght, that's a example of what I was saying-- a description of the state of nibbana which is somewhat fundamentally ineffable in the Pali Canon IS described in other Buddhist religions. Sometimes they don't even seem like the same religion because of those vast differences.
Can you elaborate? Which interpretations of nibbāna do u refer to? Abiding and non-abiding?
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by mikenz66 »

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Theravada and Mahayana need each other

Post by Saengnapha »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:42 pm
dharmacorps wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 5:54 pm
James Tan wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:42 pm If we refer to early buddhist texts , you can't find any elaborative affirmative description about the state of Nibanna , whereas , the Mahayana and Zen has . The Theravada teachings emphasized merely on the path . Mahayana , Zen and Vajrayana more on the liberation description .
RIght, that's a example of what I was saying-- a description of the state of nibbana which is somewhat fundamentally ineffable in the Pali Canon IS described in other Buddhist religions. Sometimes they don't even seem like the same religion because of those vast differences.
Can you elaborate? Which interpretations of nibbāna do u refer to? Abiding and non-abiding?
It seems like ineffability is common throughout all religions when talking about a transcendent reality no matter what it is called.

If we take Nagarjuna's writings as the definitive 'view' on Mahayana, does he talk about abiding or non-abiding as the descriptive for Nibbana?
Post Reply