mikenz66 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:46 am
You mention nama-rupa. "Nama" means volition, feeling and etc. "Rupa" means the 4 elements and its production. There is not any place in the Canon where it is said rupa it's the origin of nama neither the "mind". What we find is the teaching in where both (nama and rupa) arise because vijnana, the consciousness. And the inverse thing.
No. That nama and rupa arise because vijnana is only the order provided in dependent origination (however, there are versions of D.O. where consciousness arises dependent on nama-rupa; e.g, SN 12.67). But in other places, consciousness is caused by the mind & body (nama & rupa). MN 43 appeared to totally refute Ajahn Brahm. MN 43 says in Nirodha Samapatti when mind ends, the body remains (similar to people in a coma or in deep sleep).
Nāmarūpaṃ hetu, nāmarūpaṃ paccayo viññāṇakkhandhassa paññāpanāyā ti
Nama-and-rupa is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.
SN 22.82
Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises
Dependent on ear & sounds, ear-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises...
"Dependent on tongue & flavors, tongue-consciousness arises...
Dependent on body & tactile sensations, body-consciousness arises.
MN 18
mikenz66 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:46 am
This is one of the points I was trying to stress in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=30921#p451130
Unfortunately, that thread seemed to wander off into other issues, and into blanket assertions that: "namarupa means XXX", rather than a careful discussion of what the suttas actually say.
I recall this thread was about the interpretations of Nyanananda. Yesterday, I read Nyanananda appear to say the 'sankhara' include the 'kaya-sankhara', namely, the in & out breathing. Therefore, it seems Nyanananda teaches consciousness arises dependent upon the in & out breathing, which is material.
Nyanananda wrote:“And what, monks, are preparations? Monks, there are these three preparations. Body preparation, speech preparation, thought preparation. These, monks, are called preparations.”
It is noteworthy that in this definition, the term saṅkhāra is used in the singular as Kāyasaṅkhāro (body preparation), vacīsaṅkhāro (speech preparation) and cittasaṅkhāro (thought preparation). These three are defined in the Dhamma [MN 44] as follows:
Body preparation – in breath and outbreath
Speech preparation – thinking and pondering
Thought preparation – perception and feeling
So then in the Vibhaṅga Sutta 12 where the Buddha defines each of the twelve links, the term saṅkhāra is defined as threefold. In breathing and out breathing cannot be taken as kamma that prepares another birth. Likewise thinking and The Law of Dependent Arising pondering generally rendered as initial and sustained thought as well as perception and feeling are not reckoned as kamma. In fact whoever is wishing to put an end to existence (bhava) has to appease them. That is why they are called preparations.