Paranoid-schizoid position

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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aflatun
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by aflatun » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:31 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm

I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.
I don't disagree with you, I just hesitate to reduce the dhamma to those things (I'm not saying you are). Also, I find appeals to the brain out of place, but if they help modern people connect that's fine with me. Its probably because I've removed, handled, autopsied and microscopically examined thousands. And having seen the insides of the sausage factory that is neurologic and medical science, I can guarantee you our ideas of what neocortex and amygdala do will change with time, especially if it facilitates someones professorial tenure or publication quota. I prefer to focus on more stable principles. Its just a style thing I guess! :)
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

Saengnapha
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:38 am

aflatun wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:31 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:31 pm

I think in human terms, it is the point for the vast majority of folks who wish to be fully human and have a semblance of sanity. Only then, is there a possibility of going further and contemplating our own experience in the way the Buddha taught.
I don't disagree with you, I just hesitate to reduce the dhamma to those things (I'm not saying you are). Also, I find appeals to the brain out of place, but if they help modern people connect that's fine with me. Its probably because I've removed, handled, autopsied and microscopically examined thousands. And having seen the insides of the sausage factory that is neurologic and medical science, I can guarantee you our ideas of what neocortex and amygdala do will change with time, especially if it facilitates someones professorial tenure or publication quota. I prefer to focus on more stable principles. Its just a style thing I guess! :)
No doubt that science is a work in progress, but we shouldn't disregard the brain and how it processes information. It's the tool that we have and it needs to be used in light of the Dhamma. No reduction going on here. Brain and body are part of the whole organism. Science is adding valuable information that we can corroborate through the teachings of men like the Buddha.

Alexander____
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Alexander____ » Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:49 am

I have been in analysis for nine months now with a therapist who has partly a Kleinian approach. While it was challenging to begin with I have found it very helpful and plan to continue.

binocular
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:55 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 pm
Do you believe that one first needs to be normal on worldly terms before one can go further and contemplate our own experience in the way the Buddha taught?
Yes. Otherwise their neuroses cannot allow them to relax and be present.
Becoming normal on worldly terms seems to take one only in the opposite direction of what the Buddha taught.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Saengnapha
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:04 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:31 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:55 am
binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:09 pm
Do you believe that one first needs to be normal on worldly terms before one can go further and contemplate our own experience in the way the Buddha taught?
Yes. Otherwise their neuroses cannot allow them to relax and be present.
Becoming normal on worldly terms seems to take one only in the opposite direction of what the Buddha taught.
Perhaps I misunderstood your use of the word normal. For me, normal is the ending of neuroses. Certainly, the Buddha would be in favor of that. But it seems that this kind of normal is just the beginning of the path. The worldly normal would not have anything to do with the path. So, I would agree with what you said. (I also don't like to use the word path as it is not a linear one as the word would suggest.)

befriend
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by befriend » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:12 pm

i am schizophrenic and through metta and vipassana sila and Dana I have pulled myself out of the muck of mental illness. I function better than most non mentally ill people. I have good friends can hold an interesting conversation and volunteer one day a week. I study the nikayas and meditate and have have experienced vipassana insights into Annica Dukkha and Anatta my eyes aren't dusty at all. Most schizophrenics are religious and highly intelligent. Bi polar type also have a component of hyper religiosity.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

binocular
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:58 pm
You sound like a professional here.
Still have a long way to go ... :yingyang:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:06 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:00 pm
It would just be useful, and informative in "focusing on the task at hand", given that the execution of some of my tasks extend beyond the domain of my nearest and dearest.
So you'd like to know what goes on in the mind of a virtue-signaller, for example?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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retrofuturist
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:40 pm

Greetings binocular,

I'm comfortable with my understanding of the key processes and motivations going on in that particular instance... but yes, there's other behaviour types that it would be helpful to have a comparable understanding of.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

befriend
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by befriend » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:49 pm

It doesn't matter, it's like the man who was shot with an arrow and asks who shot me with this arrow, just follow the path and get it out. Buddha said all beings except enlightened ones are insane to some degree modern psychology does not know where schizoid paranoid personality types comes from or how to cure it. The medicine is simply goodness.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

sgns
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by sgns » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:11 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:23 pm
Does anyone have thoughts on how and whether:

- Some people never outgrow the paranoid-schizoid position?
- Some people regress back to the paranoid-schizoid position?
- A biological adult might function or behave, if operating exclusively from the paranoid-schizoid position?
Hi Paul,

One reason for Klein's word choice of "position" is to distinguish from clearcut developmental "stages" (i.e., Freud's psychosexual stages of development, etc.).

Klein “adopted the term ‘position’…to get away from the idea of stages or phases of development, which she had shown were not clear-cut but overlapping and fluctuating” (from R.D. Hinselwood's Dictionary of Kleinian Thought)

When I was studying this stuff, I preferred Thomas Ogden's spin. Ogden is a contemporary psychoanalyst. From an unpublished paper I wrote (but I can share it if you'd like):

Ogden is somewhat (but not entirely) unique in his understanding of each position, including the new one he proposes, “as a developing and ongoing mode of generating experience as opposed to a phase of development…[and each position] as contributing equally powerfully to the dialectic constituting human experience” (p. 127). Thus as discussed previously in other ways, Ogden does not necessarily see the positions as indicative of sequential development, from some “primitive” state to a secondary (and then tertiary) one. Rather, he (Ogden) views the various positions as continuously contributing to “human experience” (1989, p. 127) throughout the course of one’s life.

The book to read for Thomas Ogden is This Art of Psychoanalysis.

Otto Kernberg is another contemporary psychoanalyst heavily influenced by Klein (and also influenced by Margaret Mahler and Freud), who writes about splitting, etc. Kernberg tends to be much more diagnostic and you could say authoritarian in tone; Ogden is much more a humanist who writes beautifully. Both are brillant. For secondary explanations of Klein, you might also check out Hanna Segal, who you could say was Klein's protege, and brings great deal of clarity to her writing.

Hope that helps!

rightviewftw
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Re: Paranoid-schizoid position

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:17 pm

One will in general need to go on interdisciplinary knowledge to attempt to make supposedly comperhensive evaluations. Here are some interesting lectures on various brackets of science that are rather complementary ;
Lecture Collection | Human Behavioral Biology
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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