"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Cittasanto
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:58 pm

:anjali: :bow: :anjali: :bow: :anjali: :bow: :anjali: :bow: :anjali:
wish there was a Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu emoticon for all these posts.

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Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:59 pm

Tilt:
Ah, well, then there is no such thing as really killing someone; it is all empty. There is no such things rape; it is all empty, have no greater or lesser value as motivation and as an action than compassion and love - that is, following your line of thought. It would seem you have no idea what emptiness is either as a teaching or as an experience. You have made the classic emptiness blunder.
I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. Compassion and love arise naturally when one realises emptiness.

People don't love because they've intellectually examined the idea and consider it to be 'of value'. Lines of thought have nothing to do with it.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:00 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:
I see enlightenment as very easy. It's so easy, you couldn't stop it if you wanted to.
So, are you enlightened?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:01 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:Tilt:
Ah, well, then there is no such thing as really killing someone; it is all empty. There is no such things rape; it is all empty, have no greater or lesser value as motivation and as an action than compassion and love - that is, following your line of thought. It would seem you have no idea what emptiness is either as a teaching or as an experience. You have made the classic emptiness blunder.
I don't think you understand what I'm talking about. Compassion and love arise naturally when one realises emptiness.

People don't love because they've intellectually examined the idea and consider it to be 'of value'. Lines of thought have nothing to do with it.
So, Compassion and love are not empty?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:06 pm

Everything is love. You can't apply emptiness to the ground of being; it's the most actual ultimate truth there is.

Conceptually, yes, love is empty, if you're talking about shades or motivations of love, intellectualising it in any way.
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:11 pm

Tilt:
Are you enlightened?
I have an unusual perspective in that I was much further along the Jhanas for a long period previously, then slipped back into ignorance after drinking alcohol, which I have since given up, and I'm making the journey again. It's an unusual perspective because I have direct knowledge of levels of attainment that I am not wise or skillful enough to really be talking about. Apologies for that.

So, no, not enlightened but worth listening to or at least not dismissing all the same, with the usual critical eye applied to any speakers' words.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:18 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:Everything is love. You can't apply emptiness to the ground of being; it's the most actual ultimate truth there is.

Conceptually, yes, love is empty, if you're talking about shades or motivations of love, intellectualising it in any way.
"the ground of being." You have stopped talking about Buddhism here. Is enlightment empty?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

seanpdx
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by seanpdx » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:22 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:Tilt:
Are you enlightened?
I have an unusual perspective in that I was much further along the Jhanas for a long period previously, then slipped back into ignorance after drinking alcohol, which I have since given up, and I'm making the journey again. It's an unusual perspective because I have direct knowledge of levels of attainment that I am not wise or skillful enough to really be talking about. Apologies for that.

So, no, not enlightened but worth listening to or at least not dismissing all the same, with the usual critical eye applied to any speakers' words.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer listening to people who've made it to the top of the mountain. Just cause you bought a map don't mean you can find yer way.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:22 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:
So, no, not enlightened but worth listening to or at least not dismissing all the same, with the usual critical eye applied to any speakers' words.
I have listened. You are obviously sincere and mean well, and my critical eye tells me, however, that you are mushing up a lot of ideas - sort of make-it-up-as-you-go-along that really ends up having little to do with the Buddha's teachings.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:23 pm

seanpdx wrote:
Cafael Dust wrote:Tilt:
Are you enlightened?
I have an unusual perspective in that I was much further along the Jhanas for a long period previously, then slipped back into ignorance after drinking alcohol, which I have since given up, and I'm making the journey again. It's an unusual perspective because I have direct knowledge of levels of attainment that I am not wise or skillful enough to really be talking about. Apologies for that.

So, no, not enlightened but worth listening to or at least not dismissing all the same, with the usual critical eye applied to any speakers' words.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer listening to people who've made it to the top of the mountain. Just cause you bought a map don't mean you can find yer way.
There is always the garden path.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

seanpdx
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by seanpdx » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
seanpdx wrote:
Cafael Dust wrote: I have an unusual perspective in that I was much further along the Jhanas for a long period previously, then slipped back into ignorance after drinking alcohol, which I have since given up, and I'm making the journey again. It's an unusual perspective because I have direct knowledge of levels of attainment that I am not wise or skillful enough to really be talking about. Apologies for that.

So, no, not enlightened but worth listening to or at least not dismissing all the same, with the usual critical eye applied to any speakers' words.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer listening to people who've made it to the top of the mountain. Just cause you bought a map don't mean you can find yer way.
There is always the garden path.
But I don't like veggies. Can it be a fruit garden? That'd be awesome.

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:27 pm

I say that enlightenment is easy, because after I learned to meditate, it became a self-sustaining process.

i.e. i am following my breath now, practicing mindfulness. I have no choice in the matter, I couldn't stop if I wanted to (I've tried, not because I want to, but to experiment. I can't stop because I never started. There is no me in here, no ghost in the machine. No machine either, come to that :tongue: ).

So this is why when I lean towards zen as a foundation emphasising the simplicity of zazen and use the Pali Sutras for guidance.

When I sit zazen, another thing I never plan but which my body chooses, my back goes very straight and I adopt the classic posture, but without having learnt to. Sometimes I go into yoga poses. These things are determined by conditions, energy flow, what you will. The body chooses them for its own reasons; because of this experience I am dubious about yoga classes, learning the forms which should really just be observed, just more experience not to be clung to.
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:36 pm

Tilt:

I am the path. It is almost all of me and grows every day. I do mush concepts but I am the real deal.

I am not afraid of being made a fool of or getting things wrong because it's important to me to give people hope if nothing else, to be a living witness to the truth of the Dharma. I am a flawed witness and not without conceit, and lack of rigor in study. I shall try in the days that come to remedy this. The energies which move me, the wisdom which seeks to be born through me, have an imperfect vehicle and I have to suffer at times for the wisdom to grow through me.

If I may step outside myself for a moment, it can be said that 'he' is not without compensations, he is good with words and love, agape, has always been deeply important to him. So please be patient as the chrisalis pulsates :smile: . This isn't easy in one sense, in the sense of it always being a smooth ride.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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tiltbillings
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:56 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:Tilt:

I am the path. It is almost all of me and grows every day. I do mush concepts but I am the real deal.

I am not afraid of being made a fool of or getting things wrong because it's important to me to give people hope if nothing else, to be a living witness to the truth of the Dharma.
Which is all very nice; however, it is kind of important not to distort the Dhamma with wishful thinking.
I am a flawed witness and not without conceit, and lack of rigor in study. I shall try in the days that come to remedy this.
That would be a good thing. One thing for sure is that you do not quite have a grasp of emptiness yet. Probably the best thing is to not assume that you have the answers you assume that you have.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Cafael Dust
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:49 am

Emptiness: empty of essence or self-nature. All compounded things are impermanent and conditioned, only nibbana is unconditioned and permanent - hence I said love is the ground of being, because nibbana is love. Remove the conditioned and you have the unconditioned.

The Buddha states: "In this very one-fathom long body along with perceptions and thoughts, do I proclaim the world, the origin of the world, the end of the world and the path leading to the end of the world."

(wasn't me who asked for it to be opened, for the record. Possibly it was someone itching to and about to give me a rhetorical bloody nose, but hey)
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

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