"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Locked
seanpdx
Posts: 281
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:56 am

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by seanpdx » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:26 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
seanpdx wrote:
Cafael Dust wrote: I have an unusual perspective in that I was much further along the Jhanas for a long period previously, then slipped back into ignorance after drinking alcohol, which I have since given up, and I'm making the journey again. It's an unusual perspective because I have direct knowledge of levels of attainment that I am not wise or skillful enough to really be talking about. Apologies for that.

So, no, not enlightened but worth listening to or at least not dismissing all the same, with the usual critical eye applied to any speakers' words.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I prefer listening to people who've made it to the top of the mountain. Just cause you bought a map don't mean you can find yer way.
There is always the garden path.
But I don't like veggies. Can it be a fruit garden? That'd be awesome.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:27 pm

I say that enlightenment is easy, because after I learned to meditate, it became a self-sustaining process.

i.e. i am following my breath now, practicing mindfulness. I have no choice in the matter, I couldn't stop if I wanted to (I've tried, not because I want to, but to experiment. I can't stop because I never started. There is no me in here, no ghost in the machine. No machine either, come to that :tongue: ).

So this is why when I lean towards zen as a foundation emphasising the simplicity of zazen and use the Pali Sutras for guidance.

When I sit zazen, another thing I never plan but which my body chooses, my back goes very straight and I adopt the classic posture, but without having learnt to. Sometimes I go into yoga poses. These things are determined by conditions, energy flow, what you will. The body chooses them for its own reasons; because of this experience I am dubious about yoga classes, learning the forms which should really just be observed, just more experience not to be clung to.
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:36 pm

Tilt:

I am the path. It is almost all of me and grows every day. I do mush concepts but I am the real deal.

I am not afraid of being made a fool of or getting things wrong because it's important to me to give people hope if nothing else, to be a living witness to the truth of the Dharma. I am a flawed witness and not without conceit, and lack of rigor in study. I shall try in the days that come to remedy this. The energies which move me, the wisdom which seeks to be born through me, have an imperfect vehicle and I have to suffer at times for the wisdom to grow through me.

If I may step outside myself for a moment, it can be said that 'he' is not without compensations, he is good with words and love, agape, has always been deeply important to him. So please be patient as the chrisalis pulsates :smile: . This isn't easy in one sense, in the sense of it always being a smooth ride.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:56 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:Tilt:

I am the path. It is almost all of me and grows every day. I do mush concepts but I am the real deal.

I am not afraid of being made a fool of or getting things wrong because it's important to me to give people hope if nothing else, to be a living witness to the truth of the Dharma.
Which is all very nice; however, it is kind of important not to distort the Dhamma with wishful thinking.
I am a flawed witness and not without conceit, and lack of rigor in study. I shall try in the days that come to remedy this.
That would be a good thing. One thing for sure is that you do not quite have a grasp of emptiness yet. Probably the best thing is to not assume that you have the answers you assume that you have.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:49 am

Emptiness: empty of essence or self-nature. All compounded things are impermanent and conditioned, only nibbana is unconditioned and permanent - hence I said love is the ground of being, because nibbana is love. Remove the conditioned and you have the unconditioned.

The Buddha states: "In this very one-fathom long body along with perceptions and thoughts, do I proclaim the world, the origin of the world, the end of the world and the path leading to the end of the world."

(wasn't me who asked for it to be opened, for the record. Possibly it was someone itching to and about to give me a rhetorical bloody nose, but hey)
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 3:51 am

Cafael Dust wrote:Emptiness: empty of essence or self-nature. All compounded things are impermanent and conditioned, only nibbana is unconditioned and permanent - hence I said love is the ground of being, because nibbana is love. Remove the conditioned and you have the unconditioned.

The Buddha states: "In this very one-fathom long body along with perceptions and thoughts, do I proclaim the world, the origin of the world, the end of the world and the path leading to the end of the world."
Nibbana is not a "ground of being."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Ben » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:42 am

Hi Cafael,
Cafael Dust wrote:Emptiness: empty of essence or self-nature. All compounded things are impermanent and conditioned, only nibbana is unconditioned and permanent - hence I said love is the ground of being, because nibbana is love. Remove the conditioned and you have the unconditioned.
That's an interesting statement. I have never read anywhere in the Tipitaka that Nibbana is love. Nor have I read anywhere that love is an unconditioned dhamma. But i am interested in this view of yours and I would appreciate it if you could tell me how you came to this conclusion and what support you have for your contention from the Pali Canon and or the commentarial literature.
Many thanks

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6625
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Dec 30, 2009 9:35 am

Hi Ben,
In mindfulness and mental health by Chris Mace, chapter 5 page 133/134 arizona program, he has noted that Jon Kabat-Zinn had identified 7 foundations of mindfulness, and Shapiro and colleagues had added another 5 to this list, one being Loving Kindness.
7 foundations of Kabat-Zinn wrote: 1 - non-judging (not evaluating or categorising)
2 - patience (letting things unfold in their own time)
3 - beginners mind (being willing to see anything afresh)
4 - trust (of oneself, of one's experience and of life)
5 - non-striving (not trying to get to a goal or outcome)
6 - acceptance (seeing things as they actually are in the present)
7 - letting go (allowing thoughts, feelings, etc., to pass away).
additional 5 Shapiro & colleagues wrote: 1 - gentleness (being soft, considerate and tender)
2 - generosity (giving without thought of return)
3 - empathy (feeling for and understanding others in the present)
4 - gratitude (reverence and appreciation for what is present)
5 - loving kindness (unconditional benevolence and love)
many of these seam either out of place with the canon, or something to be referenced by within the canon considering satipaṭṭhānas is
The foundations of mindfulness (sati-patthanā) are;
1. Ardent;
2. Alert;
3. Mindful;
4. Putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
The references of mindfulness (sati-upaṭṭhāna) are;
1. Body;
2. Feeling;
3. Mind;
4. Mental Qualities.
although the second list is not exhaustive and their are aspects of each which boost the references of mindfulness up it does seam strange to associate any aspect of the references (metta being part of mental qualities) with the final goal, more than as a reflective tool, or aspect of the practice which is present at any given time, when fully developed.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:08 am

Without suffering, without craving, there is only unconditional love. Love is not a 'compounded thing', it is what is left when the mind is still. You may not like me using the word 'love'; I'm happy to carry on using nibbana.

The mind drags us this way and that, fuelled by the fires of passion, wanting, always saying 'I will settle when... I will free you when...' But there is always another task that seems to be new, however tasks and intentions as a whole are sisyphean in nature.

Love is what manifests when the mind lets go of us; hence I say it is the ground of being, not a thing but thingness itself, the unconditioned, requiring no relative formula of conditions for its existence. It is the truth behind form; just as white can be divided into a spectrum of colours, love is through ignorance divided into our world as we see it. When I say 'our world', I mean 'our perception', or 'our experience'.

Everything in samsara is in flux, nothing permanent or unmoving. It is our mind's movement that constitutes our ignorance and blinds us to nibbana. It is as if someone is telling you you are loved but before they can get a word out you interrupt and cut them off, and have been doing so since beginningless time.
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:12 am

Cafael Dust wrote:. . . hence I say it is the ground of being. . . .
Nibbana is not a "ground of being."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:19 am

It is in zen.

Ok, no, the above is a way of describing things. Really there's no ground of being, just this, that, the other. There certaintly seems to be a ground of being, because I've experienced this stripping away and love remaining. But really we can't even be said to be moving in time, so no that or the other. I am only aware of one instant at a time, so how can I have the sense of time passing?

What about the rest of the post, do you disagree with all of it?
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:27 am

Cafael Dust wrote:It is in zen.
That is debatable, but Zen is not Theravada and it carries no weight in terms of what nibbana is.
What about the rest of the post, do you disagree with all of it?
I find that you pretty much skip over things that you disagree with. Where does the Buddha state that love is unconditioned. And I'll repeat what I asked before: Compassion and love are not empty?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Dan74
Posts: 3012
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:12 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Dan74 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:44 am

Cafael Dust wrote:It is in zen.

Ok, no, the above is a way of describing things. Really there's no ground of being, just this, that, the other. There certaintly seems to be a ground of being, because I've experienced this stripping away and love remaining. But really we can't even be said to be moving in time, so no that or the other. I am only aware of one instant at a time, so how can I have the sense of time passing?

What about the rest of the post, do you disagree with all of it?
It's very hard to describe these things and being a beginner myself, I certainly don't claim to speak for Zen, but when you say "I've experienced this..." it doesn't sound like ground of being, which in Zen is just another expression for the Original Mind, True Nature, nirvana, etc. The Original Mind is without an observer and it cannot be observed or experienced. Otherwise it wouldn't be a non-dual state. Some aspect of emptiness can be experienced, and this can certainly feel like stripping away.

_/|\_
_/|\_

Cafael Dust
Posts: 194
Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:55 pm

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:14 pm

Dan: But there is no observer at any time. I think you confuse 'realisation' with 'state of mind'. That everything is love isn't a state, it's more a realisation of the way things are at all times. But words are inadequate here.

Tilt: I can talk about Zen here can't I, since this is the free-for-all?

I said to you before, compassion and love with a small l are empty, they are experiences, but nibbana is not a compounded, conditioned thing, it is the way things are. I suppose it might help to think of two kinds of love, love in a situation e.g. I love her, I love the view, I love humanity etc and love as more like gravity, an inexorable force with no components since it is made up of every other compounded thing, but can also be obscured by them. That kind of love is what I'd call nibbana.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23044
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:25 pm

Cafael Dust wrote:
Tilt: I can talk about Zen here can't I, since this is the free-for-all?
You can talk about Zen, but you can't meaningfully make claims about what the Buddha in the Pali suttas teach based upon Zen.
I said to you before, compassion and love with a small l are empty, they are experiences, but nibbana is not a compounded, conditioned thing, it is the way things are.
Nibbana is not a ground being, but is it empty, from your perspective?

You still avoid questions put to you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 68 guests