"Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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christopher:::
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by christopher::: »

Sanghamitta wrote:What luminous minds ? Where do they occur in the Khandas ? Unless we are Non Returners our citta is obscured by kilesas.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

source: Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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tiltbillings
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings »

christopher::: wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:What luminous minds ? Where do they occur in the Khandas ? Unless we are Non Returners our citta is obscured by kilesas.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind.{I,v,9}
And changing with extreme rapidity from moment to moment. Is this "luminosity" nibbana as seems to cafael claim? Not at all. It is that instant of awareness that happens before the khandhas of saññā and sankhāra kick in. Is it what is cultivated by mindfulness practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cittasanto »

Cafael Dust wrote:No, I'm not making any such claims and it's clear from my post that I wasn't. My point was that there is nothing to appeal to except experience, not mine but yours. That's a fundamental problem when dealing with inner life.
you said
Buddha did the same thing though, and asked others to confirm his teachings through practice. I don't suggest that my discourse is anywhere near the same level though
I responded
your making claims of being akin to the Buddha to some extent, and being a teacher here?
akin means similar to
discourse means teaching in one sense of the word, with the example of the Buddha it seamed to be the most appropriate meaning.

others have pointed this out, you have made claims to high meditative states, and that is why you should be listened to, so it isn't to much of a strech to reach this conclusion.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Sanghamitta »

christopher::: wrote:
Sanghamitta wrote:What luminous minds ? Where do they occur in the Khandas ? Unless we are Non Returners our citta is obscured by kilesas.
"Luminous, monks, is the mind.1 And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1}

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

source: Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous

:anjali:
As Thannisaro Bhikku says in his notes to the Sutta, the luminous mind is what the meditator is trying to develop. In this sense " luminous mind" should not be confused with any concept like Buddhadhatu. Therefore " we " do not have luminous minds except potentially. Few of us can claim to be " well instructed disciples of the noble ones". An epithet that implies a high degree of realisation. For most of us I would suggest instants of awareness is all we can claim with any honesty.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Jechbi »

alan wrote:Jechbi--many more ways for the mind to proliferate outside Therevada!
This is a perilous conceit.
tiltbillings wrote:You claim that other paths lead to what the Buddha taught. I am waiting for you to show us.
This is impossible to show. Even if it were true that other paths lead to what the Buddha taught (hypothetically), unless one has attained to some abhinna or has finished the task for oneself, there's no possible way to show this.

I think we can all agree with the often-repeated stanza from the suttas: "The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One." But the discussion in this thread appears to be stepping off from two completely different platforms:

(Platform 1) The institution of Theravada Buddhism is or is not the singular path that the Buddha taught.

(Platform 2) Individuals based on their own past and present kamma can or cannot apprehend Dhamma teachings, regardless of the faith tradition in which they happen to find themselves in this present lifetime.

The first platform focuses on the efficacy of Theravada Buddhism. The second platform focuses on the content of individual kamma. I have the sense that Cafael Dust is trying to argue from the second platform, but is doing so in a way that prompts people to respond from the first platform.
Ben wrote:Apart from the attainment and teachings of previous Buddhas, Gotama's attainment and teaching is unique to the world. No other teacher has ever provided a path, that when practiced, that leads one from dukkha to bodhi.
Yes, that is my conviction as well. Whenever and wherever we encounter Dhamma teachings, they are the teachings of the Buddha. The Buddha taught the complete path for the cessation of suffering.

Does that mean that no elements of Dhamma teachings whatsoever are to be found outside the tradition of Theravada Buddhism? Does that mean that individuals not-yet-enlightened can never, in their own words, use clumsy labels that propel them, individually, along a path that progresses toward a better understanding of Dhamma?
Bhikkhus, this is the direct path* for the purification of beings, for the surmounting of sorrow and lamentation, for the disappearance of pain and grief, for the attainment of the true way, for the realization of Nibbana - namely, the four foundations of mindfulness.
What are the four? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating feelings as feelings, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating mind as mind, ardent, fully aware and mindful, having put away covetousness and grief for the world. He abides contemplating mind-objects as mind-objects, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put awaay covetousness and grief for the world.

* The Pali reads Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo and virtually all translators understand this as a statement upholding satipatthana as an exclusive path. Thus Ven Soma renders it: "This is the only way, O Bhikkhus", and Ven Nyanaponika: "This is the sole way, monks" Nm however points out that ekayana maggo a MN12.37-42 has the unambiguous contextual meaning of "a path that goes in one way only," and so he renders the phrase in this passage to. The expression used here, "the direct path," is an attempt to preserve this meaning in a more streamlined phrasing. MA explains ekayana magga
as a single path, not a divided path; a way that has to be walked by oneself alone.
-- MN10, Satipatthana Sutta
Indeed. This exclusive path is not any one technique or methodology. Rather, this exclusive path is the underlying process necessary for the cessation of suffering. It is a way that has to be walked by oneself alone. When we have the kamma (in the sense of volitional action) to find and follow a teacher who can propel us along this path, we have an opportunity to take some steps along this exclusive path. But I don't think we should make the mistake of identifying any single tradition, technique or methodology as what the Buddha refers to when he says, Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo.

In my opinion, it's good for us to examine our own path and practice.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by alan »

Jechbi-- In this context I'm saying it is so much easier to proliferate ideas, concepts, and thoughts within the Mahayana. "Emptiness", "Original Nature", etc. They don't really give us any way to judge them. Too easy to just go off on a non-rational rant. Within the Therevada, however, claims must be backed up. That is why I say there are many more ways for the mind to proliferate
outside Therevada.
Don't see anything dangerous or conceited about that.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust »

I think my mistake has been in conflating the results of nibbana with nibbana itself, which literally translated from Pali means 'no craving' or 'blowing out (of the fires of craving). (source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/515409/The-WA ... -Venerable" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.google.com/search?client=saf ... 8&oe=UTF-8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

Love, luminous consciousness, which I would call the ground of being, result from nibbana, but nibbana itself is not the ground of being, it is the absence of craving and therefore absence of conscious turning away from exactly what is happening right now.

One more thing, to defend my use of the word 'love' to describe nibbana, Buddha does say one telling thing. He says upon reaching nibbana 'my heart is utterly set free'. Well that's how I would define love.
Last edited by Cafael Dust on Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Nor do I Alan.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by alan »

Jechbi,
Not sure if you are using the concept of Kamma correctly.
As for platforms, pretty sure I introduced a similar idea several pages back. Maybe it was another thread, but the basic idea is this: are there many paths up the mountain, or just one? I'm going to say case closed--there is only one. So that leaves us with this this: those who like to pick and choose from different beliefs--are you sure you can trust yourselves to make the right choices?
It's potentially perilous!
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cittasanto »

Cafael Dust wrote:One more thing, to defend my use of the word 'love' to describe nibbana, Buddha does say one telling thing. He says upon reaching nibbana 'my heart is utterly set free'. Well that's how I would define love.
do you know where about that passage is?
sometimes translators use heart instead of mind, but how does the Buddha define love - Metta - and what are the roots of the word?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

These Suttas and articles on Nibbana may be of interest:

Nibbana
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-su ... ml#nibbana" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cafael Dust wrote:I think my mistake has been in conflating the results of nibbana with nibbana itself, . . .
Love, luminous consciousness, which I would call the ground of being, result from nibbana, but nibbana itself is not the ground of being, it is the absence of craving and therefore absence of conscious turning away from exactly what is happening right now.
And you contine to conflate things. Luminous mind has not been, by the Buddha defined as love. That is your doing, based upon yopur ideas of how you think things should be.
One more thing, to defend my use of the word 'love' to describe nibbana, Buddha does say one telling thing. He says upon reaching nibbana 'my heart is utterly set free'. Well that's how I would define love.
And heart is used by the Buddha in the same way modern Western people might use it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings »

Jechbi wrote:
alan wrote:Jechbi--many more ways for the mind to proliferate outside Therevada!
This is a perilous conceit.
tiltbillings wrote:You claim that other paths lead to what the Buddha taught. I am waiting for you to show us.
This is impossible to show.
Then it is meaningless to claim. Adding to such meaninglessness is the pressing into service distorted understandungs of Buddhist doctrine.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by Cafael Dust »

How do you interpret 'my heart is utterly set free?'

Tilt, if it's meaningless to claim other paths lead to enlightenment without proof, why is it not equally so to claim the opposite? Do you have proof?
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Re: "Luminous mind" was Question Regarding God and Agnosticism?

Post by tiltbillings »

Cafael Dust wrote:How do you interpret 'my heart is utterly set free?'

Tilt, if it's meaningless to claim other paths lead to enlightenment without proof, why is it not equally so to claim the opposite? Do you have proof?
I do not have to make that claim; however, looking at what it is that the Buddha taught as a way to awakening, it is not found in other "paths."

You, on the other hand, are making a claim for which you have yet to show any real, meaningful, proof.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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