And, again, you do not address the question raised by me, which was not that the Buddha lived or not, but what "Sanskrit" scholars supposedly, accordinmg to you, said about it. Your refusal renders your claim meaningless.pink_trike wrote:
emphasis added...Too busy right now, and its irrelevant to me whether he lived or not. If it matters to you, do the research (outside of institutional Buddhism).
Why did you choose Theravada?
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
I am well aware of recent scholarship says, which is why I am asking you to back up your claim thatpink_trike wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you're not aware that this debate between secular scholars and the Buddhist institution exists.
pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
that is an opinion you shared, so where is your evidence for that?pink_trike wrote: No, I didn't offer any opinion about whether the Buddha ever existed or not.
I said that scholars aren't able to find sufficient evidence to support such a claim and are increasingly less willing to accept "facts" put forth by institutional Buddhism regarding the Buddha's existence.
I didn't say that there was any practices that supported the opinion of scholars. I said that it is irrelevant to me whether the Buddha actually lived or not...my interest is only in the practices and testing the teachings.
if you share something it is you who backs it up, no one else, or I could easily say that Leonardo DaVinci, Alexander G. Bell, or Vlad Tepish never lived and are steriotypes of X. Y. & Z. or myths spread for A. B. & C. reason due to evidence I know but you need to go look for!
if it didn't matter why share it? you are the one who said
if it truly was nothing more then why bring up unsupported claims unrelated to the practice?I'm interested in the practices and testing the teachings. Nothing more.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
Since you are "well aware" of this ongoing debate (and I know that you are), then you proved my point and there is no need for me to back up my "claim" that there is a secular scholarly opinion that is skeptical of a buddha that actually lived.tiltbillings wrote:I am well aware of recent scholarship says, which is why I am asking you to back up your claim thatpink_trike wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you're not aware that this debate between secular scholars and the Buddhist institution exists.pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha, because I really (really, really) don't care if there was or not.
Sheesh, really, guys...my saying that secular scholars are having a hard time finding your Buddha shouldn't be such a touchy subject.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
I proved your point? Nice try, but not really the case. You made a claim, refused to back it up when asked and now you are stating I proved your point, but you still do not back up your claim that I proved your point or thatpink_trike wrote:Since you are "well aware" of this ongoing debate (and I know that you are), then you proved my point and there is no need for me to back up my "claim" that there is a secular scholarly opinion that is skeptical of a buddha that actually lived.tiltbillings wrote:I am well aware of recent scholarship says, which is why I am asking you to back up your claim thatpink_trike wrote:
I find it hard to believe that you're not aware that this debate between secular scholars and the Buddhist institution exists.pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha.
So far your claims are meaningless.pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
I am not asking you to debate whether there was an actual Buddha. I am asking you to back up your claim about "Sanskrit" scholars, which you are refusing to do, making your claim meaningless.Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha, because I really (really, really) don't care if there was or not.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand?tiltbillings wrote: I proved your point? Nice try, but not really the case. You made a claim, refused to back it up when asked and now you are stating I proved your point, but you still do not back up your claim that I proved your point or thatSo far your claims are meaningless.pink_trike wrote: Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
I am not asking you to debate whether there was an actual Buddha. I am asking you to back up your claim about "Sanskrit" scholars, which you are refusing to do, making your claim meaningless.Separately, I'm not interested in debating whether there was or wasn't an actual Buddha, because I really (really, really) don't care if there was or not.
Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
It is cheap talk to make such claims and then being "unwilling" - unable - to back them up. You are correct, your claims are baseless.pink_trike wrote:]
What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand?
Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
Might this topic of the historical Buddha's existence be worth splitting off from the main topic, since both topics are worth continuing? Just a thought.
I'm not surprised to hear that there is debate over whether or not Gotama was a real person -- philosophers have speculated for ages that Socrates was not a real person, but rather a literary device employed by Plato in his dialogues. Since both Socrates and Gotama lived around 2500 years ago, and almost no one from 2500 years ago can be "proven" to have existed, I guess it makes sense.
Anyway, though I'm not surprised to learn of this debate, I must confess to knowing nothing about Sanskrit historical scholarship. And googling "Did Buddha exist" turns up a ridiculous amount of hits, most of which have nothing to do with the question, so if anyone can point me to some links dealing with this I'd be very curious to read more and would appreciate the guidance in advance.
I'm not surprised to hear that there is debate over whether or not Gotama was a real person -- philosophers have speculated for ages that Socrates was not a real person, but rather a literary device employed by Plato in his dialogues. Since both Socrates and Gotama lived around 2500 years ago, and almost no one from 2500 years ago can be "proven" to have existed, I guess it makes sense.
Anyway, though I'm not surprised to learn of this debate, I must confess to knowing nothing about Sanskrit historical scholarship. And googling "Did Buddha exist" turns up a ridiculous amount of hits, most of which have nothing to do with the question, so if anyone can point me to some links dealing with this I'd be very curious to read more and would appreciate the guidance in advance.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
Let us see what pink-trike can give us on this.Tex wrote:so if anyone can point me to some links dealing with this I'd be very curious to read more and would appreciate the guidance in advance.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- pink_trike
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
I have two turkeys in ovens, and am making a couple of pies. Shortly a whole bunch of friends and family who also don't care if there was a living buddha or not are going to start ringing the doorbell. Sorry if that's inconvenient for you...I understand you're in a big hurry, but that's hardly justification for calling my so-called claim "cheap" and saying I'm "unwilling". Get a grip...I have a life and that one line "claim" doesn't justify your reactive froth or the urgency you're bringing to this imaginary issue. Isn't right about now when you slam the topic shut?tiltbillings wrote:It is cheap talk to make such claims and then being "unwilling" - unable - to back them up. You are correct, your claims are baseless.pink_trike wrote:]
What part of "I'm too busy" and "I'm not interested" don't you understand?
Yes, yes...I know, saying this just proves that my claim is baseless.
Have a great holiday!
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- tiltbillings
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems. No one is anywhere close to asking you to drop everything to answer the question reasonably put to you. Very simply one could say: "I am very busy at this moment, but in a day or two when I have enough free time, I'll be more than happy to respond in detail." Very simply.pink_trike wrote: I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
Here's something:tiltbillings wrote:Back up your claim.pin-trike wrote:Increasingly, scholars are unable to find any solid evidence of it...evidence that should be available if he actually lived and wasn't just a conceptual devise.
Lopez (1995). Buddhism in Practice. Princeton University Press. pp. 16
Not my claim and I haven't read the Lotus Sutra but the above seems common sense to me. To understand a text it helps to understand the context.tiltbillings wrote:Back up your claim.pink_trike wrote:
I was just pointing out that without a very thorough understanding of how the Sutra was constructed, the specific use of metaphor and allegory, and more importantly, the cultural milieu within which it was constructed, it would be impossible to even consider the possibility of the grand conclusions you put forth.
_/|\_
_/|\_
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
Thank you for educating me on how I should respond when I'm busy. I didn't realize that "I'm too busy right now" was inadequate. Perhaps you might consider that barking "back up your claim." might be stated a bit differently. Maybe something along the lines of "That's very interesting. Could you provide some more details when you have time?".tiltbillings wrote:All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems. No one is anywhere close to asking you to drop everything to answer the question reasonably put to you. Very simply one could say: "I am very busy at this moment, but in a day or two when I have enough free time, I'll be more than happy to respond in detail." Very simply.pink_trike wrote: I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- pink_trike
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Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
LOL...you're persistently consistent.tiltbillings wrote:All very nice, but a bit of a dodge, it seems.pink_trike wrote: I have two turkeys in ovens . . . .
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: Why did you choose Theravada?
Did a bit of a search round the internet, couldn't find much that wasn't marred with opinion, nothing factual in any case.
Buddha-denial
...and you thought rebirth-denial was bad...
Buddha-denial
...and you thought rebirth-denial was bad...
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks