Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1739
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Zom » Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm

5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.

Saengnapha
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am

Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!

User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kusala » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:34 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am
Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!
I think it's safe to say that the Jews and Buddhists are aware of "Taqiyya".
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

Saengnapha
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:48 pm

Kusala wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:34 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am
Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!
I think it's safe to say that the Jews and Buddhists are aware of "Taqiyya".
I'm not following how that relates to Rohingya and Palestinians. :thinking:

justindesilva
Posts: 434
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by justindesilva » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:04 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
May be the international journals do not publish well balanced news about the conflicts between Buddhist communities and the Muslim communities. Today in Sri Lanka many townships that had small populations of Muslim communities have grown to be large communities. Their Muslim communities are living as next door neighbours and purchasing of lands for Muslims is helped by the mosque.
Today politicians who have got close ties with the ruling parties are clearing large forest reserves to build Moslem communities with lands developed for settling Moslem communities helped by some middle East countries.
A recent Muslim and sinhala Buddhist conflict was stopped by the government with difficulty. Any involvement between a sinhala Buddhist or a Muslim could be made use of as violence for political advantage.
The worst part is that the Moslem communities are growing in numbers as they observe much less family planning while the buddist families often have small family units. It is observed that in May be another 20 years time the Moslems will have enough voting power to select a president of their own.
Talking of Rohingyas in Myanmar one must remember that Muslim communities from Bangladesh were allowed to enter Myanmar whereas it is these migrants who started harassing the Myanmar Buddhists.
And most interestingly I saw a recent article that by 2050
The number of Muslims in UK will outnumber the rest of the population.
The strategy of the Muslim communities supported by their mosques is producing their generation and is a well planned strategy in Buddhist countries.
It also must be noted that Buddhists have no restriction in marrying a Moslem the Moslems cannot marry Buddhists unless converted. When the Moslem traders came to Sri Lanka long long ago the men came alone and married sinhala buddhist females. These women always since then remained a part of the Moslem community.

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1739
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
Contact:

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Zom » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 pm

May be the international journals do not publish well balanced news about the conflicts between Buddhist communities and the Muslim communities. Today in Sri Lanka many townships that had small populations of Muslim communities have grown to be large communities. Their Muslim communities are living as next door neighbours and purchasing of lands for Muslims is helped by the mosque.
Today politicians who have got close ties with the ruling parties are clearing large forest reserves to build Moslem communities with lands developed for settling Moslem communities helped by some middle East countries.
A recent Muslim and sinhala Buddhist conflict was stopped by the government with difficulty. Any involvement between a sinhala Buddhist or a Muslim could be made use of as violence for political advantage.
The worst part is that the Moslem communities are growing in numbers as they observe much less family planning while the buddist families often have small family units.....

The strategy of the Muslim communities supported by their mosques is producing their generation and is a well planned strategy in Buddhist countries.
It also must be noted that Buddhists have no restriction in marrying a Moslem the Moslems cannot marry Buddhists unless converted. When the Moslem traders came to Sri Lanka long long ago the men came alone and married sinhala buddhist females. These women always since then remained a part of the Moslem community.
Yes, this is quite close to what she said to me.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 10939
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
Contact:

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DNS » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:41 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:36 am
Look at the Palestinian refugee population in Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. These people are still living in camps, unassimilated into the fabric of society, and still being used as political pawns by Islamic governments against Israel. It's been almost 70 years, and these folks are fellow Muslims and ethnically the same people!
Unfortunately, this is true. The Palestinians have been pawns, used by Israelis, Americans, and Arabs. From 1948 to 1967 Arab nations had full control of the West Bank, Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip. After the 6 day war, Israel took control of all those territories and then everyone complained about Israel's occupation. However, the reality was that the Arab nations had control of those areas for 19 years with full opportunity to give that land to the Palestinians as their own independent nation -- but they didn't.

SarathW
Posts: 8283
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by SarathW » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:19 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
This is near Matale Aluvihara where Tipitaka is first written in Ola leaves.
The majority in around Matale are Muslims.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Saengnapha
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am

justindesilva wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:04 pm
Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
May be the international journals do not publish well balanced news about the conflicts between Buddhist communities and the Muslim communities. Today in Sri Lanka many townships that had small populations of Muslim communities have grown to be large communities. Their Muslim communities are living as next door neighbours and purchasing of lands for Muslims is helped by the mosque.
Today politicians who have got close ties with the ruling parties are clearing large forest reserves to build Moslem communities with lands developed for settling Moslem communities helped by some middle East countries.
A recent Muslim and sinhala Buddhist conflict was stopped by the government with difficulty. Any involvement between a sinhala Buddhist or a Muslim could be made use of as violence for political advantage.
The worst part is that the Moslem communities are growing in numbers as they observe much less family planning while the buddist families often have small family units. It is observed that in May be another 20 years time the Moslems will have enough voting power to select a president of their own.
Talking of Rohingyas in Myanmar one must remember that Muslim communities from Bangladesh were allowed to enter Myanmar whereas it is these migrants who started harassing the Myanmar Buddhists.
And most interestingly I saw a recent article that by 2050
The number of Muslims in UK will outnumber the rest of the population.
The strategy of the Muslim communities supported by their mosques is producing their generation and is a well planned strategy in Buddhist countries.
It also must be noted that Buddhists have no restriction in marrying a Moslem the Moslems cannot marry Buddhists unless converted. When the Moslem traders came to Sri Lanka long long ago the men came alone and married sinhala buddhist females. These women always since then remained a part of the Moslem community.
Decades ago, the Israelis were aware of this problem of proliferation of Muslims through strategic growth of the population. With the creation of the West Bank & Gaza, this has slowed the Israeli Muslim demographic simply by cutting off those Muslims from living in Israel. This is one of the strategic reasons for a 2 state solution from Israel's point of view. The Muslims that currently live in Israel are also benefitting from the economic upswing which usually results in less birthing, more education, and longer life span. Combine that with the ultra orthodox strategy of no birth control and a desire to increase the Jewish population, Israel has given itself more time to work through this problem of remaining a Jewish state with Jewish majority.

It seems that in Buddhist countries like Sri Lanka, Myanmar, and Thailand, there is also this fear of the 'other'. Thailand refuses to deal with its Muslim problem in the south in any meaningful way. Religious fear seems to be at the heart of it all. 'Purity' ideology is a fascist concept. Many in the west think that the above Buddhist countries are fascist in their thinking and politics. Are they wrong? Economic problems know no ideology. The poor are poor not because they are Muslim or Buddhist. It seems the control of power is based on economics and the strategic use of ideology/religion keeps one group in control of the other. Democracy was supposed to end this kind of suppression but it doesn't. It creates a caste of the wealthy who go on to suppress what is not in their best interest and control what is in their best interest, money.

What seems to be missing on all sides is balance. How can you have balance when people think either in religious terms or in terms of control? To me, what is missing from the world today is real leadership and value that embraces all people. Maybe that's a dream and this life is not about perfection but a place to suffer. So far, suffering is left untouched by most religions including Buddhism in these countries. It is a bad joke, but it is happening. Very few rise above all this no matter what culture/religion one proclaims. We live a lie.

chownah
Posts: 6601
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:22 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
Thailand refuses to deal with its Muslim problem in the south in any meaningful way. Religious fear seems to be at the heart of it all.
I don't know where you got this idea. I live in thailand (more than a decade) and I have never seen anything anywhere at anytime that would even hint at religious fear. The situation is simple. The south is historically muslim from way way back. Great britian controlled the area a hundred years ago or so and when they decided to withdraw from control of the area (too much work and not enough benefit I think was the reason) the gave that area to thailand. (This is a simplification but I think basically correct.) So....thailand figures the area is part of thailand....and a large enough percentage of the muslim population wants it to be seperate from thailand. In the 100 years or so since great britian left the area to thailand and the thai gov't took over buddhists from the rest of thailand started exerting their influence.....I don't know for sure but I think that it was basically a well integrated thai society swallowing a small muslim region which was not itself well organized because of its having been under british rule for quite some time (I don't know how long the brits were there.).....this probably meant that all the positions of power and all the good opportunities for wealth accumulation were taken by buddhists.......but some of this might just be my imaginings.
chownah

Saengnapha
Posts: 337
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:22 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:22 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:09 am
Thailand refuses to deal with its Muslim problem in the south in any meaningful way. Religious fear seems to be at the heart of it all.
I don't know where you got this idea. I live in thailand (more than a decade) and I have never seen anything anywhere at anytime that would even hint at religious fear. The situation is simple. The south is historically muslim from way way back. Great britian controlled the area a hundred years ago or so and when they decided to withdraw from control of the area (too much work and not enough benefit I think was the reason) the gave that area to thailand. (This is a simplification but I think basically correct.) So....thailand figures the area is part of thailand....and a large enough percentage of the muslim population wants it to be seperate from thailand. In the 100 years or so since great britian left the area to thailand and the thai gov't took over buddhists from the rest of thailand started exerting their influence.....I don't know for sure but I think that it was basically a well integrated thai society swallowing a small muslim region which was not itself well organized because of its having been under british rule for quite some time (I don't know how long the brits were there.).....this probably meant that all the positions of power and all the good opportunities for wealth accumulation were taken by buddhists.......but some of this might just be my imaginings.
chownah
The situation is anything but simple. This is why there is no resolution after decades of violence. These are poor areas and they happen to hold the majority of Muslims in Thailand, I believe. With the right wing Malaysian Muslim Gov't at the doorstep, it is doubtful that Thailand is going to give up this territory. Add the threat of Muslim terrorism to the Bangkokian equation of the elite here, and it becomes more than just political. The British f*** up just about every place they've ever been, but the problem is clearly a Thai one now. Our wonderful Buddhist based army has disposed of many Rohingya migrants over the years. Thais do a lovely job of sweeping dirt under the carpet. You don't see religious fear because there is nothing to challenge Buddhism here except sectarian beliefs which are a plenty. Dissent is not something Thais can do openly.

User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kusala » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:32 am

Image
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

DooDoot
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by DooDoot » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:56 pm

Under Islam, the Buddha idols stood for 1,300 years. The Taliban terrorists, who also murder Muslims, blew up those Buddha idols. The Taliban were created by the USA. Watch the short videos:




User avatar
Kusala
Posts: 719
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:02 am

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Kusala » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:36 pm

Image
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

Caodemarte
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Muslims, Islam and Europe

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:55 pm

Zom wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:10 pm
5 cents. Last week I had a talk with sri-lankan student. She said she was from a small town near Colombo (or Kandy - I forgot!). 90% of population there - muslims, and local government is muslim too. And you know what? They forbade buddhists to celebrate openly (on the streets) buddhist holidays like Vesak for example. Just one small life fact.
Nonsense. Sound likes more bigoted propaganda. No local government has or could forbid celebrations of holidays of the majority religion in Sri Lanka. Additionally, I would be very surprised if there is a small town with 90 per cent Muslim population who have somehow seized control of local government and violate Sri Lankan law in a climare of mob violence against non-Buddhist minorites.

BTW the Muslim population is almost entirely concentrated in the greater Colombo or greater Jaffna south area, the majority being in Colombo with small numbers along the west coast. This is because most Muslims are the descendants of import/export traders. I have never heard of any area with a “Muslim government.”

Caodemarte
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:18 am

Kusala wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:08 pm
What's interesting is the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of Rohingya refugees in Muslim countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, but they aren't given citizenship...but a Buddhist country is supposed to?

UN committee urges Myanmar to give citizenship to Rohingyas http://abcnews.go.com/International/wir ... s-51197288
Rohingyas are from Myanmar. They are not immigrants from Bangla Desh or Muslim countries. They are citizens of Myanmar who are being persecuted by those filled with hate or in a cynical move to outflank political reformers.

Caodemarte
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:29 am

Kusala wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:32 am
Image
As a side note I believe the Taliban blew up the Bamiyan statues as a blow against the minority Shi’a population in that area. The states were the most famous monuments in the region and there was significant local pride in their existence. They were also the major tourist attraction in the province during happier days. As noted, no one had a religious objection for the many centuries of Islamic rule before the Taliban showed up. Not even the Taliban claimed that there were secret Buddhists out there worshiping in secret!

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1401
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by pilgrim » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:45 am

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:56 pm
Under Islam, the Buddha idols stood for 1,300 years.
Only because they failed to demolish it entirely as the did not have modern tools and explosives. But they managed to remove the face and other identifying features with their crude tools. The Taliban finished the job with modern explosives.

Caodemarte
Posts: 754
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by Caodemarte » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:53 am

pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:45 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:56 pm
Under Islam, the Buddha idols stood for 1,300 years.
Only because they failed to demolish it entirely as the did not have modern tools and explosives. But they managed to remove the face and other identifying features with their crude tools. The Taliban finished the job with modern explosives.
What is your evidence for this statement? Trust me when I say that Afghans have had gunpowder for some time!

More seriously archaeologists reported that the main bodies were hewn from the cliffs, but details were modeled in mud mixed with straw, coated with stucco. The painted coating, based on the remaining pigments, was assumed by archaeologists to have worn away. The upper parts of their faces were made from wooden masks or casts. Rows of holes were photographed that held wooden pegs that apparently stabilized the outer stucco. All very perishable.

As Buddhism went extinct (and later after the Silk Road economy collapsed and the area lost population) neglect in a harsh environment appears far more likely a cause of any damage (and we have physical evidence of that) than deliberate damage (I personally have not come across any evidence of any pre-Taliban deliberate destruction). Certainly in modern times the locsal Muslim population took great pride in their existence which is why I beleive the Taliban destoyed them.

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1401
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Buddhism and Islam in Asia: A Long and Complicated History

Post by pilgrim » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:08 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:53 am
pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:45 am
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:56 pm
Under Islam, the Buddha idols stood for 1,300 years.
Only because they failed to demolish it entirely as the did not have modern tools and explosives. But they managed to remove the face and other identifying features with their crude tools. The Taliban finished the job with modern explosives.
What is your evidence for this statement? Trust me when I say that Afghans have had gunpowder for some time!

More seriously archaeologists reported that the main bodies were hewn from the cliffs, but details were modeled in mud mixed with straw, coated with stucco. The painted coating, based on the remaining pigments, was assumed by archaeologists to have worn away. The upper parts of their faces were made from wooden masks or casts. Rows of holes were photographed that held wooden pegs that apparently stabilized the outer stucco. All very perishable.

As Buddhism went extinct (and later after the Silk Road economy collapsed and the area lost population) neglect in a harsh environment appears far more likely a cause of any damage (and we have physical evidence of that) than deliberate damage (I personally have not come across any evidence of any pre-Taliban deliberate destruction). Certainly in modern times the locsal Muslim population took great pride in their existence which is why I beleive the Taliban destoyed them.
History records that the Mughal king Aurangzeb tried to destroy it with cannons in the 17th century but I think the vandalism started as far back as the 9th century with the Persian king Yaʿqūb ibn Layth al-Ṣaffār.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests