Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

[DooDoot]

If you really want to advance the cause of women's empowerment...

Muhammad's 1st wife was a business woman & Muhammad was originally her younger husband & employee. Muhammad's young wife became very powerful politically, leading an army into battle. One of the most famous verses of the Koran is Muhammad's plea to stop the practise of burying unwanted girl children alive. As for the term "women's empowerment", as shown in Chapter 37 of the SN (Matugama-samyutta — Destinies of women), if this is not focused on morality, it is not "empowerment" in Buddhism but another kind of empowerment.

And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked
For what sin she was killed

Surah At-Takwir 81:8-9

then speak out against the brutality of Sharia Law

Sharia Law appears to include different tribal laws & is more closer Biblical Jewish Law than the Koran. There are Muslims who logically reject Sharia Law. If Wikipedia is researched on a topic in Islam, it is often found the Koran teaching on the topic is different to the Sharia teaching on the topic, as follows, for example:

Zināʾ (زِنَاء) or zina (زِنًى or زِنًا) is an Islamic legal term referring to unlawful sexual intercourse.[1] According to traditional jurisprudence, zina can include adultery (of married parties), fornication (of unmarried parties), prostitution, bestiality, and rape.[1] Classification of homosexual intercourse as zina differs according to legal school.[2] The Quran disapproved of the promiscuity prevailing in Arabia at the time, and several verses refer to unlawful sexual intercourse, including one that prescribes the punishment of 100 lashes for fornicators.[2] Four witnesses are required to prove the offense.[2] Zina thus belongs to the class of hadd (pl. hudud) crimes which have Quranically specified punishments.[2]

Although stoning for zina is not mentioned in the Quran, all schools of traditional jurisprudence agreed on the basis of hadith that it is to be punished by stoning if the offender is muhsan (adult, free, Muslim, and having been married), with some extending this punishment to certain other cases and milder punishment prescribed in other scenarios

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina#Qur.27an

The above said, there are Pali suttas where it appears the Buddha accepted executions (the death penalty) for crimes, including adultery.

Well then, prince, I will yet ask you this, and do you answer even as you think fit. What think you? Take the case of men who have taken a felon red-handed and bring him up saying—“My lord, this felon was caught in the act; inflict what penalty you wish.” He replies—“Well then, sirs, bind this man securely, his arms behind him, with a strong cord; shave his head; lead him around, to the sound of a sharp drum, from street to street, from cross-road to cross-road, and out at the southern gate; there, south of the town in the place of execution, cut off his head.” They, assenting with “Very good,” proceed to carry out these orders, and, in the place of execution, make him sit down.

https://suttacentral.net/en/dn23

female genital mutilation

Unrelated to Islam. In Egypt, genital mutilation was practised for hundreds of years before Islam including by Christians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_ge ... #Antiquity

child brides

DN 31 teaches about child brides. Romeo & Juliet is about very young lovers.

the stoning of rape victims

Unrelated to Islam and seems to be about cultural family honor.

women being used as chattel and sex slaves

Here, the Koran should be read, carefully & distinguished from the common slave trade. The Pali suttas, via the default of acceptance, endorse slavery. Slavery existed in Thailand, until recently. Buddhist sex industry in Thailand, Catholic sex industry in Philippines, Jewish sex slavery in Israel, Founding Fathers pornographic sex slavery made in the USA?

women being blown up and otherwise killed or dislocated through acts of terror, subjugation, lesbians being thrown off cliffs and buildings etc.

Is this prescribed in the Koran? Or does it refer to the practise of mercenaries paid $150 per month by the US govt & its allies? If being gay was such a crime in the Muslim world, where did ISIS find any gay people to throw off buildings?

You can expect the Terms of Service to be executed, independently of your incessant complaining and moralising.

In Buddhism, acts of error, due to ignorance (not-knowing) are always forgivable.

[DooDoot]

I very much agree with this. We are on a Buddhist discussion forum. It is not clear to me how these criticisms and negative comments about Islam and other faiths are in any way appropriate in this forum. There are other avenues available. As far as I can tell, the post in which it is suggested that Muhammad be urinated upon is still visible here on DW. Very discouraging.

The Buddha praised vast learning. I think expecting non-critique of Islam is non-Buddhist. I think Buddhists should learn about the wholesome & unwholesome aspects of Islam. I was only now surprised to learn the Bahai were heavily political & involved in assassinations; similar to Nelson Mandela, the Irgun Zionists & other terrorists that later become mainstream leaders:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1b#Execution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1 ... e_B.C3.A1b
https://bahai-library.com/pdf/m/momen_a ... n_shah.pdf

[Pseudobabble]

When reading some of these posts it becomes clear some of these people have never had any Muslim friends, and when you hear there opinions, it becomes clear why they don't have any Muslim friends.

So lyndon.... some of your best friends are Muslim?



Anyway, jokes aside, every religion deserves to be equally represented in our diverse Dhamma Wheel world of bigotry. The work of five minutes shows there's plenty of the old double-plus-bad talk in the other Abrahamic texts. I guarantee it can be found in non-Abrahamic texts too.


Let's not forget that Jesus was a big meanie too:

If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out ... And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee

God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Good Ol' Yahweh also makes the list:

2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.

2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.

7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
7:10 And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face.

Etc.

These things are so evil we should never mention them, and should remove all signs that they exist in reality. We should blind ourselves to them, and not discuss them, lest we appear to be doing injustice. Because we might misrepresent Christians and Jews. Right? I mean, what's a person's opinion worth. Right?

[retrofuturist]

Greetings DooDoot,

I think Buddhists should learn about the wholesome & unwholesome aspects of Islam.

Whilst I won't be undertaking such a study (whilst there is still some of the Anguttara Nikaya which remains unread), I'm open to hearing from you and others, of any of wholesome aspects you encounter.

It's my hope that modern day Saudi Arabia will become the embodiment of such wholesome aspects.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... own-prince

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

It's my hope that modern day Saudi Arabia will become the embodiment of such wholesome aspects.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... own-prince

Saudi Arabia does not follow 'Islam' but follows 'Wahhabism'. That 'Wahhabism' is mistaken for 'Islam' is a major problem for Muslim people, who are being murdered by Wahhabi & their Western allies. As for the new Saudi Prince, he is a wait & see project since he just kidnapped the Lebanese President, murdered the best Saudi friend of the Lebanese President & declared war on Lebanon. The article is not about Islam because Saudi Arabia does not follow Islam. Countries that follow Islam are Syria, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc. Once countries like Egypt, who are puppets of the West, bring in Wahhabi-style govt and start to persecute Christians, this is not Islam.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings DooDoot,

Saudi Arabia does not follow 'Islam' but follows 'Wahhabism'. That 'Wahhabism' is mistaken for 'Islam' is a major problem for Muslim people, who are being murdered by Wahhabi & their Western allies.

I don't disagree with you there, especially if you're speaking in (recent) past tense.

As for the new Saudi Prince, he is a wait & see project since he just kidnapped the Lebanese President, murdered the best Saudi friend of the Lebanese President & declared war on Lebanon. The article is not about Islam because Saudi Arabia does not follow Islam.

I get the impression he's draining the corrupt Wahhabi swamp (and Trump is providing support for that, in part because it's those self-same people who help fund "the swamp" in the U.S. through money laundering, bribes, illicit trade etc.), but as you infer, we'll wait and see...

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

Paul.

Its very important to review the history of Islam. I posted before how when the (ex-Buddhist) Mongols brutally invaded Persia they took over the Islamic Empire, converted to Islam & then proceeded to India to butcher Buddhists & Hindus. Ignoring these extremes, the facts of history is numerous religious groups, including Buddhism for around 500 years, lived under the Islamic Empire. No matter how primitive or medieval some versions of Islam may appear, the historical reality of Islam is it was infinity more secular than any Christian empire, which rendered extinct basically every indigenous religion in Europe & the Americas.

But when Wahhabi ISIS, Al Nusra, Al Qaeda, Free Syria Army, etc, ran rampant in Iraq & Syria over the last 6 years, they murdered & tried to genocide different cultures of different religions, such as Christians & Yazidis, who lived under Islam for 100s of years.

The most significant criminal event of the 21st century was 9/11, which has nurtured a totalitarian police state domestically & internationally. The official doers of 9/11 were Saudi Wahhabi (yet the real Muslims have paid the price for 9/11). For individuals such as myself, 9/11 will always be the crux of it all.

There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path. لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ (There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear.

Verse (ayah) 256 of Al-Baqara is a well-known verse in the Islamic scripture, the Qur'an. The verse includes the phrase that "there is no compulsion in religion". Immediately after making this statement, the Qur'an offers a rationale for it: Since the revelation has, through explanation, clarification, and repetition, clearly distinguished the path of guidance from the path of misguidance, it is now up to people to choose the one or the other path. This verse comes right after the Throne Verse

The meaning of the principle that there is no compulsion in religion was not limited to freedom of individuals to choose their own religion. Islam also provided non-Muslims with considerable economic, cultural, and administrative rights

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Baqara_256

[retrofuturist]

Greetings DooDoot,

Thanks for sharing your insights. It's pretty clear that Islamic orthodoxy has undergone a degree of supersessionism along the way, and latter reinterpretations have been allowed to gain prominence over the earliest strata of teaching.

Now, where have I encountered that phenomenon before?...

Metta,
Paul.

[DooDoot]

It's pretty clear that Islamic orthodoxy has undergone a degree of supersessionism along the way, and latter reinterpretations have been allowed to gain prominence over the earliest strata of teaching.

For sure. However, the history of the militarism of Muhammad will always taint Islam as a worldly political ideology (rather than a pure spiritually, such as Buddha-Dhamma). However, for me, I would happily travel to Syria or Iran (or pre-Taliban Afghanistan), as I have traveled in Indonesia & Malaysia. With metta

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

Asokan Edicts

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds. But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions. Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good. One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.

[lyndon taylor]

Asokan Edicts

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds. But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions. Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good. One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.

[Nicholas Weeks]

I wonder if our great, ancient King would still say 'mild criticism' regarding Xtianity & Islam, which came after his time?

[Modus.Ponens]

Following is a suggested template for reporting anti-Islam posts and other posts which disparage other faiths:

Provision 2.d. of the TOS on this forum prohibits, among other things: "Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals or traditions." This post and other similar posts by this Member violate TOS by making unsubstantiated allegations against the tradition of Islam.

I encourage Members to speak out.

I have no problem with this rule. The claims about Muhammad are very well substantiated, because they are backed up by the canonical scriptures of islam. There is no need to be inflamatory because this is a buddhist forum and because incendiary style is counterproductive. But how do you tell the truth about Muhammad without upseting some people, even by just quoting canonical sources? That is not possible, unfortunately.

It seems very inappropriate to "tell the truth about Muhammad" in the manner which has been done here, using for substantiation facts which may be in dispute, with the ultimate goal of disparaging Islam. This is not a discussion of Dhamma. I think "connections with other paths" contemplates finding where there are points of connection, not how we can put down other faiths.

This should not be confused with endorsement of religious persecution. This should not be confused with characterizing muslims as if they are all the same as Muhammad, or saying that they're all evil, because clearly they are not.

When there is a thread about the perfection of Rohingya Muslims and Buddhists start talking about all the excuses for why such persecution might be justified (e.g., the Rohingya's past-life culpability) and denying that Buddhists are carrying out the persecution, then comments are an implicit endorsement of religious persecution.

... The only way this can happen is if the islamic doctrines that encourage these crimes are criticized. And it includes a severe criticism of Muhammad as a (bad) moral example for today's world.

I am sorry if this offends, but the comment is ignorant. There is good and bad in any presentation of one's faith (as evidenced here on DW by the Buddhist "proselytizers" who sometimes come out of the woodwork), but one visit to your neighborhood mosque may help you to realize that any perceived examples of rape or pedophile or the other absurdities which have been pointed out here on DW as the truth about Muhammed are not the examples which Muslims in general follow. The discussions here on DW have crossed the line over, and over, and over again into something ugly, particularly at a time when Muslims are persecuted at the hands of self-identified Buddhists. We should be setting a better example here.

If you want to prevent others from reading unpleasant truths, then you are leaving the minorities within the muslim minority to rot under the islamofascist regimes and/or laws.

Disparaging Islam (and Christianity, and Bahai, among perhaps other faiths) on a Buddhist discussion forum devoted to Dhamma certainly will not help these individuals. To me it sounds more like an excuse for Islam-bashing.

Thus, you cannot claim that your position is moral and mine isn't, because it is the opposite.

I have not made such a claim.

I could make an unfortunately long list of the things that ofend me about islam and the apologists for islamic fundamentalism. So, even then, your ofense would not surpass mine.

And none of your long list should have any place on a Buddhist forum devoted to discussion of Dhamma. We should create an environment which is welcoming to Muslims who may wish to hear the Dhamma. We certainly have not done this at DW.

Substantiate your defense of Muhammad, or accept the criticism of Muhammad as statement of fact, and not disparagement.

I decline to do either. The select and distorted facts you and others choose to identify here in this Dhamma forum are inappropriate, in my opinion. There are other more appropriate avenues for this.

The koran is the most respected scripture in islam, followed by the sahih al bukhari and the sahih muslim. I have quoted them to substantiate what I have said. You have not substantiated your claims about Muhammad. Either substantiate your claims, or stop complaining about the truth as if it consists of distortion and lies.

I do not endorse religious persecution, and that's that.

Telling the truth about islam, by criticizing its bad aspects, is the only way to turn what is bad about it into something better. This was the process of deradicalization of medieval christianity. If you want to protect islam from criticism, then the pratical effect of that is that the bad aspects of islam will not be corrected, and the crimes of its fanatics against nonmuslims and moderate muslims will continue. So, trying to paint my position as imoral is actually an inversion of the pratical reality of this debate.

If you have any sugestion on how to explore islam in this forum, while leaving out the truth about Muhammad, about the history of islam, and about present day islamic fundamentalism, then please inform the moderators about it.

[perkele]

The Buddha praised vast learning. I think expecting non-critique of Islam is non-Buddhist. I think Buddhists should learn about the wholesome & unwholesome aspects of Islam.

Greetings DooDoot,

Thanks for sharing your insights.

I second that.
Your contributions throughout the various threads on these topics have been very helpful at providing a greater context and better understanding of these very complicated political and cultural issues and conflicts and elucidating some of their roots and causes.
Sadhu!

[L.N.]

If you have any sugestion on how to explore islam in this forum, while leaving out the truth about Muhammad, about the history of islam, and about present day islamic fundamentalism, then please inform the moderators about it.

As stated above:

A reasonable line could be drawn such that comments which show open contempt for other traditions are a violation of TOS. This is within the authority of the operators of the Forum, and would be in keeping with the goals of discussing the Dhamma. If people want to bash other faiths, there are other avenues available.

Of course I defer to those who provide this forum and manage it. Members don't get to decide how things are run, but we can have our say to the extent permitted.

There have been a lot of ugly posts about Islam and other faiths. They have no place here, in my opinion.