Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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L.N.
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:51 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:45 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am
but your position is on its face over-the-top silly.

Im fine with you thinking that, just trying to plant a seed. I realize that my position is not going to win me any popularity contests :)
You and I have something in common then.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by m0rl0ck » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:53 am

L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:51 am
m0rl0ck wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:45 am
L.N. wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:20 am
but your position is on its face over-the-top silly.

Im fine with you thinking that, just trying to plant a seed. I realize that my position is not going to win me any popularity contests :)
You and I have something in common then.
Cool :jumping:
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:31 pm

"I planted that seed!"

-every Christian after an evolution vs creationism debate, after failing to win the debate, but truly believing they planted the seeds of truth within their opponent.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:53 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:42 pm
Just as it is throughout the forum "play the ball, not the man".
This is one of the more insightful comments made in this Topic, as it goes to the heart of the issue. When one comments about the person, it is "playing the man." In so doing, there is a greater potential for conflict and misunderstanding. That is a good summary of the point in the other Topic about Right Speech: Getting Personal (link).

Many, many times, we witness Members playing the person, not the ball. Comments such as some of those in the poll in the other Topic illustrate playing the person, not the ball. Just as it is throughout the forum, a more effective way of communicating in most instances is to address the Topic (the ball) rather than shoot down the messenger.

It is about one's personal approach to Right Speech. This is not about judging other's reactions when they are subject to personalized comments. That is a different Topic (which I may start, hopefully with less resulting drama).

Similarly, comments which broadly disparage other traditions can very easily be taken personally.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:14 am

Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:53 am
When one comments about the person, it is "playing the man."

Many, many times, we witness Members playing the person, not the ball. Comments such as some of those in the poll in the other Topic illustrate playing the person, not the ball.
True, but do you not see that by virtue of how you set up this (and in particular your other recent topic) you actually designated "the man" as "the ball"... or at least greatly blurred what would otherwise normally be a clear distinction between the two?

Might be worth considering for future topics you create...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by L.N. » Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:14 am
True, but do you not see that by virtue of how you set up this (and in particular your other recent topic) you actually designated "the man" as "the ball"... or at least greatly blurred what would otherwise normally be a clear distinction between the two?

Might be worth considering for future topics you create...

Metta,
Paul. :)
Will consider, thank you.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Sovatthika » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:49 am

all your posts i've seen are complaining about the forum. there are aspects of it i have disliked too, but i'm here because i guess i benefit from it in some way
take it or leave it (start by contributing)
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am

I think LN IS making a valuable contribution to this forum.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Mr Man » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am
I think LN IS making a valuable contribution to this forum.
I agree.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:25 am

Mr Man wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:22 am
lyndon taylor wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:01 am
I think LN IS making a valuable contribution to this forum.
I agree.
I also agree, though I notice that of late we spend more time discussing social and political issues, rather than Dhamma.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:51 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:19 pm
If they believe that God (who instated their religious doctrine) is just, then, by implication, they think it is just and look forward to everything God did, does, or will do, including burning "infidels" in hell forever. If they hope that God's justice be done, and God's justice includes burning "infidels" in hell forever, then they hope that those "infidels" will burn in hell forever.
Come on binocular, this makes no sense... It is like saying that Buddists hope that people with bad karma go to hell because that is what the Buddha said must happen to them.
Besides, believing that God is just in no way implies that one would look forward to it. There is no sensible justification for 'hoping that God's justice be done', if you know for sure it will. You don't hope for something you already know is bound to happen. After all, don't Buddists believe a number of people will burn in hell too? why are you cool with that but not when it comes to Islam?

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm

L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:03 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 pm
Substantiate your defense of Muhammad, or accept the criticism of Muhammad as statement of fact, and not disparagement.
I decline to do either. The select and distorted facts you and others choose to identify here in this Dhamma forum are inappropriate, in my opinion. There are other more appropriate avenues for this.
I think this is the best approach, since for the actual followers of Islam, such 'facts' ascribed to the islamic creed may not even have a fraction of the relevance they are conveniently attributed by its detractors. It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours. Because it is the one dictating their behavior. Yours does not.

L.N. your English is so beautiful, would you mind making your postings a bit longer in the future? I just love reading whatever you write, because you write it so well. A bit like the Qur'an for Muslims.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am

lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
L.N. wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:03 am
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:27 pm
Substantiate your defense of Muhammad, or accept the criticism of Muhammad as statement of fact, and not disparagement.
I decline to do either. The select and distorted facts you and others choose to identify here in this Dhamma forum are inappropriate, in my opinion. There are other more appropriate avenues for this.
I think this is the best approach, since for the actual followers of Islam, such 'facts' ascribed to the islamic creed may not even have a fraction of the relevance they are conveniently attributed by its detractors. It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours. Because it is the one dictating their behavior. Yours does not.
Hello.

Criticizing islam and Muhammad is not the same as criticizing muslims. Many muslims are cultural muslims, with a sufi bent. It is the fundamentalists who read the canonical texts and adhere to them with zeal. To the extent that they do what is described in those texts, we need to criticize the texts themselves. But in order to criticize the texts we need to start by aknowledging what is written in them.

In the topic in question I have quoted the facts directly from the canonical islamic scriptures (which can be easily found online from islamic and academic sources). Some members complained about the offensiveness of the facts, but they did not provide refutations based on canonical islamic scriptures. Some members claimed these facts have long been disproven, without providing the required proof. Thus, these remain facts.

Facts matter. In the case of a medical doctor treating a patient, the doctor needs to get to the right diagnosis in order to apply the propper cure. Similarly, social problems need to be correctly diagnosed before they can be solved for the benefit of everyone, without violating the human rights of the individuals.

Denying these facts is like postponing a visit to the doctor when, in your heart, you know you have to go. If someone points to you that you need to go to the doctor, you can be offended and protest but, deep down, you still know that you have to go. When people hear these unpleasant facts they are confornted with their denial. But in fact, it's the denial that is allowing the problem to get worse and, if the denial continues, it will result in the drastic measures that the denialists desperately want to prevent. And their anxiety does not allow them to see that they're not the only ones who want to prevent drastic measures.

The middle way is to solve the problem humanely, within the democratic framework, while we still can. Ignoring the facts is not an option, at least not a decent one. Please check the canonical scriptures.

Añjali.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am

lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours.
Really?

So actual white racists in the American South - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?

Actual German neo-Nazis - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?

It's pretty clear that all parties involved have a stake in the perception of heritage.

This idea that the only opinion/perception/idea which matters is that which some faction has of itself is nonsense - there is nothing illogical per se about criticising the perceptions of others.
lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
Because it is the one dictating their behavior. Yours does not.
And this is not the case either - Islamic terrorists are explicitly acting against what they see as Western corruption of and aggression against their moral and cultural virtues. So the actions of others do affect the perceptions which underlie action.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:42 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am
To the extent that they do what is described in those texts, we need to criticize the texts themselves. But in order to criticize the texts we need to start by aknowledging what is written in them.
I disagree. You may criticize their understanding of the texts, but not 'what is written in the texts', for the simple reason that your interpretation of this text (or rather, its English translation I would assume) might way differ from theirs. And their actions based on textual references may stem from a different interpretation which has nothing to do with yours. This is why it is pointless to criticize 'the texts' because no interpretation, no reading of a text in this world is purely objective and universal.
In the topic in question I have quoted the facts directly from the canonical islamic scriptures (which can be easily found online from islamic and academic sources). Some members complained about the offensiveness of the facts, but they did not provide refutations based on canonical islamic scriptures. Some members claimed these facts have long been disproven, without providing the required proof. Thus, these remain facts.
Really? It seems to me that someone has rebutted most of your arguments, and that you were in the process of developping your own counter-arguments, which I look forward to.
Facts matter. In the case of a medical doctor treating a patient, the doctor needs to get to the right diagnosis in order to apply the propper cure.
True, but what you're suggesting is akin to a doctor prescribing a drug based on the description of that drug without looking at the symptoms of the disease.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:56 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am
lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours.
Really?
You completely misunderstood me, I'm sorry if I was not clear.


So actual white racists in the American South - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?
It is the one that dictates their worldview, so if you want to criticize their attitude, it is their interpretation of their heritage that you should consider and analyze. Not other people's perception of this very same heritage.
Actual German neo-Nazis - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?
Yes, because they look at the same facts as you in order to come up with Aryan supremacy theories. The problem doesn't lie with the facts, but with the interpretation that's made of them.
It's pretty clear that all parties involved have a stake in the perception of heritage.
This is beside the point. I hope my point is clearer now. Of course perceptions may be influenced, but they cannot be disregarded 'because the facts say otherwise'. If some Islamic texts say that Muhammad did X, Y and Z, but Muslims don't believe he did for any number of reasons, then for all intents and purposes XYZ did not happen, since those Muslims are not going to integrate those facts into their worldview. This is why a non-Muslims interpretation of the islamic texts is completely irrelevant when critcizing the actions of Muslims,since their actions are determined by THEIR worldview, not yours.
This idea that the only opinion/perception/idea which matters is that which some faction has of itself is nonsense - there is nothing illogical per se about criticising the perceptions of others.
I fully agree with that. I never said you should not criticize people's perceptions. What I said is precisely that in order to criticize their perceptions, you need to understand them, instead of applying your own perceptions to them and assuming that they understand their religious texts exactly the same way that you do.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by binocular » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:19 am

lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:51 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:19 pm
If they believe that God (who instated their religious doctrine) is just, then, by implication, they think it is just and look forward to everything God did, does, or will do, including burning "infidels" in hell forever. If they hope that God's justice be done, and God's justice includes burning "infidels" in hell forever, then they hope that those "infidels" will burn in hell forever.
Come on binocular, this makes no sense... It is like saying that Buddists hope that people with bad karma go to hell because that is what the Buddha said must happen to them.
Why is the teaching called the "Gospel" or "Glad tidings" or "Good news"?
Besides, believing that God is just in no way implies that one would look forward to it.
Why on earth not??
If one used to be lost, and then one was found, would one not be glad then??!
There is no sensible justification for 'hoping that God's justice be done', if you know for sure it will. You don't hope for something you already know is bound to happen.
Okay, yes. Still, no reason not to look forward to God's justice.

I'd say a good portion of Abrahamists take considerable consolation and relief in God's justice being done.
After all, don't Buddists believe a number of people will burn in hell too?
And I suppose they are glad about it too.
why are you cool with that but not when it comes to Islam?
I never said I was cool with that, or that I am a Buddhist.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by DooDoot » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:26 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am
Islamic terrorists are explicitly acting against what they see as Western corruption of and aggression against their moral and cultural virtues.
Which terrorists? ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc, who continue to work for US interests, killing Muslims?
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am
Many muslims are cultural muslims, with a sufi bent.
Sounds wishful. The majority of Muslims probably do not even know what Sufism is.
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:13 am
It is the fundamentalists who read the canonical texts and adhere to them with zeal. To the extent that they do what is described in those texts, we need to criticize the texts themselves.
Maybe it is you that need to understand the texts. Countless Islamic scholars have overtly said terrorism is against the texts, which is a straightforward reading of the texts. Your post seems loaded with rhetorical generalisations.

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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by Pseudobabble » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:32 am

lostitude wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:56 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:33 am
lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:40 pm
It is pointless to accuse any community of embracing their historical heritage when their perception of said heritage doen't match your own. And it doen't matter which one is more accurate: the only one that matters is theirs, not yours.
Really?
You completely misunderstood me, I'm sorry if I was not clear.


So actual white racists in the American South - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?
It is the one that dictates their worldview, so if you want to criticize their attitude, it is their interpretation of their heritage that you should consider and analyze. Not other people's perception of this very same heritage.
Actual German neo-Nazis - their perception of their heritage is the only one that matters?
Yes, because they look at the same facts as you in order to come up with Aryan supremacy theories. The problem doesn't lie with the facts, but with the interpretation that's made of them.
It's pretty clear that all parties involved have a stake in the perception of heritage.
This is beside the point. I hope my point is clearer now. Of course perceptions may be influenced, but they cannot be disregarded 'because the facts say otherwise'. If some Islamic texts say that Muhammad did X, Y and Z, but Muslims don't believe he did for any number of reasons, then for all intents and purposes XYZ did not happen, since those Muslims are not going to integrate those facts into their worldview. This is why a non-Muslims interpretation of the islamic texts is completely irrelevant when critcizing the actions of Muslims,since their actions are determined by THEIR worldview, not yours.
This idea that the only opinion/perception/idea which matters is that which some faction has of itself is nonsense - there is nothing illogical per se about criticising the perceptions of others.
I fully agree with that. I never said you should not criticize people's perceptions. What I said is precisely that in order to criticize their perceptions, you need to understand them, instead of applying your own perceptions to them and assuming that they understand their religious texts exactly the same way that you do.
Got it, we are on the same page.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

lostitude
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Re: Will certain Buddhists on DW please stop disparaging other faiths

Post by lostitude » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:59 pm

binocular wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:19 am
lostitude wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:51 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:19 pm
If they believe that God (who instated their religious doctrine) is just, then, by implication, they think it is just and look forward to everything God did, does, or will do, including burning "infidels" in hell forever. If they hope that God's justice be done, and God's justice includes burning "infidels" in hell forever, then they hope that those "infidels" will burn in hell forever.
Come on binocular, this makes no sense... It is like saying that Buddists hope that people with bad karma go to hell because that is what the Buddha said must happen to them.
Why is the teaching called the "Gospel" or "Glad tidings" or "Good news"?
Because it's great news to know that you will go to Heaven. Doesn't mean you wish for other people to go to Hell. Not by any account...
Besides, believing that God is just in no way implies that one would look forward to it.
Why on earth not??
If one used to be lost, and then one was found, would one not be glad then??!
Being glad, again, doesn't mean you can't wait for other people to rot in hell and drool in anticipation about them burning forever.

Okay, yes. Still, no reason not to look forward to God's justice.
:clap: You sound just like an Evangelist. "There is no reason not to believe in God".

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