Taoism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
sentinel
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Re: Taoism

Post by sentinel »

Chen style Tai Chi

You always gain by giving
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khemindas
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Re: Taoism

Post by khemindas »

Taoism praise infant or baby as highest ideal, while Buddha explained why it is wrong.

For example in Tao te ching:
" But I alone remain quiet and calm like an infant who is pure and innocent."
Being a valley of the world and not depart from the true nature, once can return to original pureness like an infant"

While Buddha explained that infant is impure and incomplete:

MN 78:

When an individual has four qualities I describe them, not as an invincible ascetic—accomplished in the skillful, excelling in the skillful, attained to the highest attainment—but as having achieved the same level as a little baby. What four? It’s when they do no bad deeds with their body; speak no bad words; think no bad thoughts; and don’t earn a living by bad livelihood. When an individual has these four qualities I describe them, not as an invincible ascetic, but as having achieved the same level as a little baby.
When an individual has ten qualities, master builder, I describe them as an invincible ascetic—accomplished in the skillful, excelling in the skillful, attained to the highest attainment. But certain things must first be understood, I say. ‘These are unskillful behaviors.’ ‘Unskillful behaviors stem from this.’ ‘Here unskillful behaviors cease without anything left over.’ ‘Someone practicing like this is practicing for the cessation of unskillful behaviors.’

MN 64:

For a young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘identity,’ so how could identity view arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘teachings,’ so how could doubt about the teachings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to doubt lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘rules,’ so how could adherence to rules and observances arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to adhere to rules and observances lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘sensual pleasures,’ so how could sensual desire arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to sensual lust lies within him. A young tender infant lying prone does not even have the notion ‘beings,’ so how could ill will towards beings arise in him? Yet the underlying tendency to ill will lies within him.
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cappuccino
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Re: Taoism

Post by cappuccino »

20
Must you value what others value, avoid
what others avoid?
How silly!
Others are excited, as though at a party.
I alone am tranquil and expressionless, like
an infant too young to smile.

I alone have nowhere to be.

Tao Te Ching
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

if I look at the following texts, from my perspective, it appears as if Taoism also points to Nibbana, but just calls it Tao. Underneath are two translations from one part of a verse in the Tao Te Ching.

"If you can talk about it,
it ain’t Tao.
If it has a name,
it’s just another thing." (Ron Hogan translation)

Or in other words;

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name." (Steven Mitchell translation)

Taoism just seems to take a different approach, and seems to look at how we can come in balance with this flow of reality, which is basically the same as the Middle way in Buddhism, which leads to one-pointed equanimity, which is the Tao.

Taoism just takes the way through feeling, in contrast to most Buddhist traditions, who take the way through the mind. But the one side liberates the other, so they seem to lead to the same state. If the mind is liberated, you feel liberated. If you feel liberated, the mind is liberated. Interesting.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Fri Apr 17, 2020 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
beanyan
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Re: Taoism

Post by beanyan »

khemindas wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:47 am Taoism praise infant or baby as highest ideal, while Buddha explained why it is wrong.

For example in Tao te ching:
" But I alone remain quiet and calm like an infant who is pure and innocent."
Being a valley of the world and not depart from the true nature, once can return to original pureness like an infant"

While Buddha explained that infant is impure and incomplete:
You're taking it too literally. Tao Te Ching is more like Koans. Its clearly from its influence that Zen came up with the idea of koans.
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

khemindas wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:47 am Taoism praise infant or baby as highest ideal, while Buddha explained why it is wrong.

For example in Tao te ching:
" But I alone remain quiet and calm like an infant who is pure and innocent."
Being a valley of the world and not depart from the true nature, once can return to original pureness like an infant"

While Buddha explained that infant is impure and incomplete:
I don't think that the text should be taken literally, being a valley of the world.

I interpret it in the sense that one can return to the pureness one had as an infant of living in the moment. And if one can return, one knows the way.
freedom
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Re: Taoism

Post by freedom »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:05 pm if I look at the following texts, from my perspective, it appears as if Taoism also points to Nibbana, but just calls it Tao. Underneath are two translations from one part of a verse in the Tao Te Ching.

"If you can talk about it,
it ain’t Tao.
If it has a name,
it’s just another thing." (Ron Hogan translation)

Or in other words;

"The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name." (Steven Mitchell translation)

Taoism just seems to take a different approach, and seems to look at how we can come in balance with this flow of reality, which is basically the same as the Middle way in Buddhism, which leads to one-pointed equanimity, which is the Tao.

Taoism just takes the way through feeling, in contrast to most Buddhist traditions, who take the way through the mind. But the one side liberates the other, so they seem to lead to the same state. If the mind is liberated, you feel liberated. If you feel liberated, the mind is liberated. Interesting.
Here is the original in Chinese for the first two sentences

道 可 道 非 常 道
名 可 名 非 常 名

A Tao(道) that can be (可) a Tao (道) is not (非) an eternal (常) Tao (道)
A Name(名) that can be (可) a Name (名) is not (非) an eternal (常) Name (名)

This means if something exists as a "Tao" then it cannot be eternally as that same "Tao" without changing. Similarly, if something exists as a "Name" then it cannot be that "Name" forever. Why? Because the impermanence of all things. If something exists then it must change and cannot be the same forever. This is talking about the law of impermanence. That's how I understand.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.
sentinel
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Re: Taoism

Post by sentinel »

道 可 道 非 常 道
Tao that one speak of is not the eternal Tao


名 可 名 非 常 名
Name that one speak of is not the eternal Name
You always gain by giving
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

freedom wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:27 am Here is the original in Chinese for the first two sentences

道 可 道 非 常 道
名 可 名 非 常 名

A Tao(道) that can be (可) a Tao (道) is not (非) an eternal (常) Tao (道)
A Name(名) that can be (可) a Name (名) is not (非) an eternal (常) Name (名)

This means if something exists as a "Tao" then it cannot be eternally as that same "Tao" without changing. Similarly, if something exists as a "Name" then it cannot be that "Name" forever. Why? Because the impermanence of all things. If something exists then it must change and cannot be the same forever. This is talking about the law of impermanence. That's how I understand.
Thank you for the translation. Yes it tries to show that if something can have a name, it is already not what Tao is about. In that sense, it is exactly the same as Nibbana. The approach how to get there, the Way, or Middle Way, is also the same. Taoism doesn't seem to learn dependent origination, but this is irrelevant if one is in perfect tune with nature and one's feelings, and realizes that nothing can be named because of impermanence. That is the same state and understanding as to where dependent origination leads to.

It is just plain arrogance, out of ignorance, if Buddhists think that Buddhism goes any further.
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

sentinel wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:23 am 道 可 道 非 常 道
Tao that one speak of is not the eternal Tao


名 可 名 非 常 名
Name that one speak of is not the eternal Name
Brahman is described in a similar way.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Dinsdale wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 am
sentinel wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:23 am 道 可 道 非 常 道
Tao that one speak of is not the eternal Tao


名 可 名 非 常 名
Name that one speak of is not the eternal Name
Brahman is described in a similar way.
I thought that Brahman describes an unchanging cause of all that exists and changes, or something in that notion. Which would make it something formless, and something that has a permanent existence. In that sense, someone still clings to something. Which is not the same as where Taoism and Buddhism point to. "Eternal Tao" makes it sound that it describes something unchanging, but it refers only to the ever changing flow of states (impermanence); the unconditioned, like Nibbana.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:28 am
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 am
sentinel wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 3:23 am 道 可 道 非 常 道
Tao that one speak of is not the eternal Tao


名 可 名 非 常 名
Name that one speak of is not the eternal Name
Brahman is described in a similar way.
I thought that Brahman describes an unchanging cause of all that exists and changes, or something in that notion. Which would make it something formless, and something that has a permanent existence. In that sense, someone still clings to something. Which is not the same as where Taoism and Buddhism point to. "Eternal Tao" makes it sound that it describes something unchanging, but it refers only to the ever changing flow of states (impermanence); the unconditioned, like Nibbana.
According to the Wilki article, the Tao is the "source, pattern and substance of everything that exists", which sounds similar to the way Brahman is described, a sort of "ground of being". It doesn't sound like Buddhism though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

I'm not seeing any support for your idea that Tao is like Nibbana, could you elaborate on this? In the suttas Nibbana is usually described as the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance, which doesn't sound like the Tao at all.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
PeterC86
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Re: Taoism

Post by PeterC86 »

Dinsdale wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:33 am
PeterC86 wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:28 am
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 7:56 am

Brahman is described in a similar way.
I thought that Brahman describes an unchanging cause of all that exists and changes, or something in that notion. Which would make it something formless, and something that has a permanent existence. In that sense, someone still clings to something. Which is not the same as where Taoism and Buddhism point to. "Eternal Tao" makes it sound that it describes something unchanging, but it refers only to the ever changing flow of states (impermanence); the unconditioned, like Nibbana.
According to the Wilki article, the Tao is the "source, pattern and substance of everything that exists", which sounds similar to the way Brahman is described, a sort of "ground of being". It doesn't sound like Buddhism though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

I'm not seeing any support for your idea that Tao is like Nibbana, could you elaborate on this? In the suttas Nibbana is usually described as the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance, which doesn't sound like the Tao at all.
The wiki article seems to be written from a lack of understanding, because the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. If something exists or has a source, it can be named, and is therefore not the eternal Tao. So in the way your quote is written on Wiki, it doesn't support the comparison with Nibbana.

I am not going to explain how to get to Nibbana in detail here, which is the only method to explain Nibbana. Which means that one only truly understands Taoism, if one understands Nibbana. So this must come from experience.

Taoism just takes another route, but it leads to the same summit. But because it takes a different route, it explains the way different, so it seems like they are talking about something different. The way of Taoism and the middle way are essentially the same, but explained differently; way of feeling vs way of the mind.
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Re: Taoism

Post by Spiny Norman »

PeterC86 wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 10:02 am
Dinsdale wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 9:33 am
PeterC86 wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 8:28 am

I thought that Brahman describes an unchanging cause of all that exists and changes, or something in that notion. Which would make it something formless, and something that has a permanent existence. In that sense, someone still clings to something. Which is not the same as where Taoism and Buddhism point to. "Eternal Tao" makes it sound that it describes something unchanging, but it refers only to the ever changing flow of states (impermanence); the unconditioned, like Nibbana.
According to the Wilki article, the Tao is the "source, pattern and substance of everything that exists", which sounds similar to the way Brahman is described, a sort of "ground of being". It doesn't sound like Buddhism though.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism

I'm not seeing any support for your idea that Tao is like Nibbana, could you elaborate on this? In the suttas Nibbana is usually described as the cessation of craving, aversion and ignorance, which doesn't sound like the Tao at all.
The wiki article seems to be written from a lack of understanding, because the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. If something exists or has a source, it can be named, and is therefore not the eternal Tao. So in the way your quote is written on Wiki, it doesn't support the comparison with Nibbana.

I am not going to explain how to get to Nibbana in detail here, which is the only method to explain Nibbana. Which means that one only truly understands Taoism, if one understands Nibbana. So this must come from experience.

Taoism just takes another route, but it leads to the same summit. But because it takes a different route, it explains the way different, so it seems like they are talking about something different. The way of Taoism and the middle way are essentially the same, but explained differently; way of feeling vs way of the mind.
I'm still not seeing a coherent basis for your ideas, or any support from the Buddhist suttas or Taoist writings.
It just sounds like perennialism.

From the texts, it would appear that the Tao has much more in common with Brahman than with Nibbana.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Taoism

Post by Coëmgenu »

The problem with Daoism, in my experience, is that everyone has their "pet Dao" that they read into the texts, and secondly that they literally can't read the texts because translators of the texts into English are more interested in having their English rendering confirm to their own pet Dao and sometimes seem to simply not care what the Chinese says. Archie Baum's translation is perhaps the worse for this. Check out his rendering of DDJ1:
Nature can never be completely described, for such a description of Nature would have to duplicate Nature. No name can fully express what it represents.

It is Nature itself, and not any part (or name or description) abstracted from Nature, which is the ultimate source of all that happens, all that comes and goes, begins and ends, is and is not. But to describe Nature as "the ultimate source of all" is still only a description, and such a description is not Nature itself. Yet since, in order to speak of it, we must use words, we shall have to describe it as "the ultimate source of all."
If Nature is inexpressible, he who desires to know Nature as it is in itself will not try to express it in words
Although the existence of Nature and a description of that existence are two different things, yet they are also the same.

For both are ways of existing. That is, a description of existence must have its own existence, which is different from the existence of that which it describes; and so again we have to recognize an existence which cannot be described.


As a translation, it's pretty much useless, and this is a particularly bad example, but most of the English renderings I've read suffer from interpretive problems like Baum's. It sort of challenges what a translation is, but this is very common for translations of the Dàodéjīng. People here have already posted the first Division of Chapter 1.

道可道非常道。
名可名非常名。

Twelve words, incredibly sparse, very simple, and very formulaic. The Dàodéjīng is full of parallel phrases (i.e. "Named, it is such and such. Unnamed, it is such and such" etc.) that build upon each other.

Compare this yet-unreadable sparse Chinese with nearly any popular English translation (and note that all these English renderings are much superior to ones like Baum's):
The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao. The name that can be named is not the enduring and unchanging name. (Legge)

The Reason that can be reasoned is not the eternal Reason. The name that can be named is not the eternal Name. (Susuki)

The Dao that can be understood cannot be the primal, or cosmic, Dao, just as an idea that can be expressed in words cannot be the infinite idea. (Goddard)


Translations like Goddard's introduce notions to try to hold an English reader's hand and add qualifiers like "primal," "cosmic," etc., and these their attempts to interpret. Not ideal, but better than rewriting the entire text.

Looking at the Chinese, I can't figure out where Archie Bahm is getting any of his words, and I don't mean to randomly barge in ranting about Archie Baum. This simply isn't the Chinese text. It seems to be a novel or series of reflections on possible implications the original text might have, but this seems to not really be a translation. I'm not sure if Archie Baum is actually a translator, or if he is a philosopher who read a lot of English translations of the text and decided to give it "his spin." Power to him, of course. Giving things "our spin" at one point or another is part of the process of learning, one could say.

Just consider how incredibly verbose Baum's rendition of Chapter 1 is compared to the extremely simple and sparse Chinese.

1
道可道非常道。
名可名非常名。
2
無名天地之始﹔
有名萬物之母。
3
故常無欲,以觀其妙;
常有欲,以觀其徼。
4
此兩者同出,而異名。
同謂之玄。
玄之又玄,眾妙之門。
1
The way that is walked is not the eternal way.
The name that is named is not the eternal name.
2
The unnamed is the wellspring of heaven and earth;
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
3
In a state of constant non-desire, the mystery is seen;
in a state of constant desire, the surfaces are seen.
4
These two realities are the same in source, yet different in name.
Their sameness is a secret.
It is the secret of all secrets, the door to all mysteries.


Now, I'm not offering mine as the perfect counterpoint to Baum's translation. People are going to connect with, or not connect with, what they will. Indeed, just to poke holes at this rendering, there's a lot of things in here that aren't easily accessible to a non-specialist reader. What's "ten thousand things?" Why are ten thousand random things relevant? What is the mystery that is seen? What are the surfaces?

Whether or not the Dao is comparable to Brahman IMO rests in exactly what the secret mystery is in how the perspective/reality of the unnamed which is the wellspring of heaven and earth which is the mystery that is seen is the same as the named which is the mother of the 10,000 things which is the surfaces/manifestations that are seen.

Two things coming from the same reality but in different modalities that are accordingly seen differently but are ultimately the same in origin. It is very "Brahmany."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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