400 Noble Truths

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:03 am

I don't even want to discuss it, i am glad you have affection for the Tathagata and interested and/or practicing meditation. Let's leave it at that.

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Will
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by Will » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:05 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:03 am
I don't even want to discuss it, i am glad you have affection for the Tathagata and interested and/or practicing meditation. Let's leave it at that.
As you wish, but for others who may be interested...

Maybe a metaphor will clarify - To we worldlings water differs from ice and ice differs from steam. Yet a wiser Arya type knows that all are H2O. There are hidden aspects of the Four Truths that only an Arya mind & heart can fully understand.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:16 am

Will wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:05 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:03 am
I don't even want to discuss it, i am glad you have affection for the Tathagata and interested and/or practicing meditation. Let's leave it at that.
As you wish, but for others who may be interested...

Maybe a metaphor will clarify - To we worldlings water differs from ice and ice differs from steam. Yet a wiser Arya type knows that all are H2O. There are hidden aspects of the Four Truths that only an Arya mind & heart can fully understand.
By all means do discuss i just think i should disengange because i tend to get emotional in these discussions.

Fwiw How i understand the 4NT;
  • First Noble Truth: Changing & possible. (proclaiming existence of Samsara) [Suffering]

    Second Noble Truth: Change is caused, not uncaused (proclaiming causal nature of Samsara) [dependent origination]

    Third Noble Truth: uncaused & possible (proclaiming existence of the Not-Impermanent&Possible[Nibbana])

    Fourth Noble Truth: Exhaustion of causes is caused, not uncaused (proclaiming causal nature of the Cessation of Suffering) [8FNP]
What makes information true is that it is possible, applies to the actual system which it describes.
So the Tathagata is proclaiming a comperhensive model of the system in which all gains footing.

I am curious about what you make of this.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:31 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:37 am
I think it is a complete minsunderstanding of the essential teaching sorry but maybe you do not have the data to put it into proper context.
what i meant by this is that perhaps there is something we both are missing that which puts what you wrote into proper context.
:anjali:

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Kim OHara
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by Kim OHara » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:41 am

Will wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:45 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:19 am

I would have said, rather, that the Four Truths have more and deeper meanings than Buddha had time to teach, and that they are relevant or helpful on the Path but they are all consistent with the 4NT and can all be extrapolated from them (with enough thought, naturally).

:namaste:
Kim
So among some Mahayana extrapolated thoughts there are Path & Practice worthy words & deeds?
Yes, I think so.
I know I'm in the minority in the way I understand the relationship between Theravada and Mahayana teachings but I have said before (and might as well say again) that if we think of Buddhism as a field of study in the Western sense, rather than a religion, then the Pali canon stands out as the work of the first great master of the field (a Galileo, Newton or Mendel). The Mahayana teachings then fall into place as further developments - not always exactly in line with the original teaching, perhaps, but built on its foundations to the best of the ability of people who followed after the Buddha.
And that looks like what we've got here, doesn't it?

:namaste:
Kim

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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:57 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:41 am
we think of Buddhism as a field of study in the Western sense, rather than a religion, then the Pali canon stands out as the work of the first great master of the field (a Galileo, Newton or Mendel).
I think of it as a formulae, in a completely scientific way that is, a map of sorts;
formula dictionary.com
1.
a set form of words, as for stating or declaring something definitely or authoritatively, for indicating procedure to be followed, or for prescribed use on some ceremonial occasion.
2.
any fixed or conventional method for doing something:
His mystery stories were written according to a popular formula.
3.
Mathematics.

a rule or principle, frequently expressed in algebraic symbols.
such a symbolic expression.
it's like a manual to life, means of understanding oneself and the enviroment completely

James Tan
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:22 am

So , what you called Formula , what you regard as Principle , may not be the same if Conditions change .
For example , take the solid-state of the stone , we may regard it as something Solid , but , for the deva there is No Hardness !

:quote:

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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:23 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:22 am
So , what you called Formula , what you regard as Principle , may not be the same if Conditions change .
For example , take the solid-state of the stone , we may regard it as something Solid , but , for the deva there is No Hardness !

:quote:
my understanding of it surely will change, what is ultimately possible and impossible wont change

James Tan
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:24 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:23 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:22 am
So , what you called Formula , what you regard as Principle , may not be the same if Conditions change .
For example , take the solid-state of the stone , we may regard it as something Solid , but , for the deva there is No Hardness !

:quote:
my understanding of it surely will change, what is ultimately possible and impossible wont change
Haha , good luck !

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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:25 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:24 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:23 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:22 am
So , what you called Formula , what you regard as Principle , may not be the same if Conditions change .
For example , take the solid-state of the stone , we may regard it as something Solid , but , for the deva there is No Hardness !

:quote:
my understanding of it surely will change, what is ultimately possible and impossible wont change
Haha , good luck !
what do you mean?
By what i said i meant that it will never be possible for a formation to be permanent, that is impossible and will remain so.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

James Tan
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by James Tan » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:25 am
James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:24 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:23 am

my understanding of it surely will change, what is ultimately possible and impossible wont change
Haha , good luck !
what do you mean?
If you already fixed your mind , you are in rigidity state , then you won't be able to see and comprehend if there are other Possibility !
Last edited by James Tan on Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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rightviewftw
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:30 am

James Tan wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:27 am
If you already fixed your mind , you are in rigidity state , then you won't be able to see and comprehend even if there are other Possibility !
maybe others will be able to comprehend do tell sir

Also it is offensive to assume that i am unable to entertain ideas that i do not agree with, none taken tho.

If what i said was not rightfully said then Tathagatas do not teach same Truths on what is possible and impossible?
“But, venerable sir, in what way can a bhikkhu be called skilled in what is possible and what is impossible?”

“Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that a person possessing right view could treat any formation as permanent ― there is no such possibility.’

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Will
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Re: 400 Noble Truths

Post by Will » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:38 am

Back to the sutra... excerpt from chapter 22 which goes into great detail about the Fourth Truth - the Path - the Ten Treasuries.

First is Faith or Belief:
I. The Treasury of Belief

“Disciples of the Buddha, what is the Bodhisattva Mahasattvas’ Treasury of Belief?”

“These Bodhisattvas believe that all Dharmas are empty. They believe that all Dharmas are without an appearance. They believe that all Dharmas are wishless. They believe that all Dharmas are without creation. They believe that all Dharmas are without distinctions. They believe that all Dharmas are without reliance. They believe that all Dharmas are not able to be measured. They believe that all Dharmas are Unsurpassed. They believe that all Dharmas are difficult to transcend. They believe that all Dharmas are without production.”

“If Bodhisattvas can accord with all Dharmas in this way, then after they give rise to pure belief, when they hear that all Buddhadharmas are inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that all Buddhas are inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that the realm of living beings is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that the Dharma Realm is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that the realm of empty space is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that the realm of Nirvana is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid.”

“When they hear that the past is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that the future is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that the present is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid. When they hear that entering every kalpa is inconceivable, their minds are not afraid.”

“Why not? These Bodhisattvas, residing in the places of Buddhas, have thoroughly solid faith.
Wholesome virtuous behavior progressively leads to the foremost. -- AN 10.1

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