On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:22 am

I don't think there are "credible clear examples" of enlightened beings walking around so long as you are not enlightened yourself - you simply wouldn't know the difference!

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:55 am

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:08 am
after watching the first two episodes of the video it seems to me that ugk's presentation can be understood in a way which it very similar to what the buddha taught (if one understands the buddha's teaching in a certain way) but the main difference is that the buddha claims that there is a way out of samsara and ugk claims that there is not. Since there are very few (none?) credible clear examples of those who have escaped samsara walking around today and there are alot of people saying that they are trying to escape but as of yet have not, it is difficult in the absence of faith to know who is right.
chownah
Chownah,

I had an interesting conversation today with a friend who also knew UG and we talked about this very issue of No Way Out. This was a common theme in UG's chats with friends, 'is there anything to be done?' Both of us felt that no one could come to the end of samsara by any act of their own will or any manipulation of mind or body, ie., meditation. The very impulse of resistance to your own present state must stop. This insight deepens and weakens the will, your desire to escape from what is, samsara. Samsara is just a name for your own condition. When this resistance disappears, this triggers the event of the natural state. In a sense, a complete letting go of all desire to be something else takes place. You have to struggle a lot to understand that your own struggle is futile. No path means the end of becoming. UG lived this as an example. This is not an heroic struggle. That is a romance novel. There is no victory or gain. It is simply the cessation of ignorance, the deception that you can do something about escaping your own misery. Misery being your ordinary life and all its strategies, philosophies, and tactics, to achieve enlightenment, awakening, ultimate truth, etc. It's a hard pill to swallow. When you see such a person like UG, he was empty of any self reference or self aggrandizement. He never waivered from this. There was no inner life going on. He told me once, 'you don't know if you are alive or dead'.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:58 am

Garrib wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:22 am
I don't think there are "credible clear examples" of enlightened beings walking around so long as you are not enlightened yourself - you simply wouldn't know the difference!
This is why it is important to give up any pursuit of enlightenment. It is not something that exists, a 'thing'. Our own ignorance is the key to this parable.

chownah
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:55 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:08 am
after watching the first two episodes of the video it seems to me that ugk's presentation can be understood in a way which it very similar to what the buddha taught (if one understands the buddha's teaching in a certain way) but the main difference is that the buddha claims that there is a way out of samsara and ugk claims that there is not. Since there are very few (none?) credible clear examples of those who have escaped samsara walking around today and there are alot of people saying that they are trying to escape but as of yet have not, it is difficult in the absence of faith to know who is right.
chownah
Chownah,

I had an interesting conversation today with a friend who also knew UG and we talked about this very issue of No Way Out. This was a common theme in UG's chats with friends, 'is there anything to be done?' Both of us felt that no one could come to the end of samsara by any act of their own will or any manipulation of mind or body, ie., meditation. The very impulse of resistance to your own present state must stop. This insight deepens and weakens the will, your desire to escape from what is, samsara. Samsara is just a name for your own condition. When this resistance disappears, this triggers the event of the natural state. In a sense, a complete letting go of all desire to be something else takes place. You have to struggle a lot to understand that your own struggle is futile. No path means the end of becoming. UG lived this as an example. This is not an heroic struggle. That is a romance novel. There is no victory or gain. It is simply the cessation of ignorance, the deception that you can do something about escaping your own misery. Misery being your ordinary life and all its strategies, philosophies, and tactics, to achieve enlightenment, awakening, ultimate truth, etc. It's a hard pill to swallow. When you see such a person like UG, he was empty of any self reference or self aggrandizement. He never waivered from this. There was no inner life going on. He told me once, 'you don't know if you are alive or dead'.
I think that these are musing from you and your friend.

I have no intention to do an extensive study of ugk's presentations.....but so far what I have seen of them (a couple of articles and less than an hour of video) it seems that he says that there is no way out of samsara and that this is at odds with what the buddha taught. If you can show something of his which might say otherwise I would be glad to be able to see it.
chownah

chownah
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:22 pm

Garrib wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:22 am
I don't think there are "credible clear examples" of enlightened beings walking around so long as you are not enlightened yourself - you simply wouldn't know the difference!
Interesting theory. Do you have anything from the suttas which supports it? It seems that in the buddha's time there were alot of arahants walking around and that people recognized them but maybe all of the suttas which mention arahants were composed by arahants. Throughout most of the suttas, ananda was not an arahant if I remember correctly. Are you saying then that ananda could not recognize an arahant?
chownah

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:18 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:55 am
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:08 am
after watching the first two episodes of the video it seems to me that ugk's presentation can be understood in a way which it very similar to what the buddha taught (if one understands the buddha's teaching in a certain way) but the main difference is that the buddha claims that there is a way out of samsara and ugk claims that there is not. Since there are very few (none?) credible clear examples of those who have escaped samsara walking around today and there are alot of people saying that they are trying to escape but as of yet have not, it is difficult in the absence of faith to know who is right.
chownah
Chownah,

I had an interesting conversation today with a friend who also knew UG and we talked about this very issue of No Way Out. This was a common theme in UG's chats with friends, 'is there anything to be done?' Both of us felt that no one could come to the end of samsara by any act of their own will or any manipulation of mind or body, ie., meditation. The very impulse of resistance to your own present state must stop. This insight deepens and weakens the will, your desire to escape from what is, samsara. Samsara is just a name for your own condition. When this resistance disappears, this triggers the event of the natural state. In a sense, a complete letting go of all desire to be something else takes place. You have to struggle a lot to understand that your own struggle is futile. No path means the end of becoming. UG lived this as an example. This is not an heroic struggle. That is a romance novel. There is no victory or gain. It is simply the cessation of ignorance, the deception that you can do something about escaping your own misery. Misery being your ordinary life and all its strategies, philosophies, and tactics, to achieve enlightenment, awakening, ultimate truth, etc. It's a hard pill to swallow. When you see such a person like UG, he was empty of any self reference or self aggrandizement. He never waivered from this. There was no inner life going on. He told me once, 'you don't know if you are alive or dead'.
I think that these are musing from you and your friend.

I have no intention to do an extensive study of ugk's presentations.....but so far what I have seen of them (a couple of articles and less than an hour of video) it seems that he says that there is no way out of samsara and that this is at odds with what the buddha taught. If you can show something of his which might say otherwise I would be glad to be able to see it.
chownah
But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by aflatun » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:49 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:10 am
This is an excellent video of UG being interviewed in San Francisco in the mid or late 80's. Maybe one can get a better 'feel' of what he was like in a simple one on one conversation rather than some of the more 'dramatic' videos of him showing him rejecting the rediculous comments and attitudes of most of the people that came to see him.

When you sat there in the room with him watching this endless circus of questioners seeking something to satisfy themselves with, you would begin to see all of this in yourself. That you were doing the same thing, trying to understand, trying to capture something that is not capturable, and how this movement creates problems that perpetuate themselves. This movement was completely absent in UG. He was not in any state or suggested there was any state to be in. He said this change in him took place through a physical transformation that was triggered through his seeing that he was deceiving himself, fooling himself.
Thanks for sharing this, very different vibe compared to the videos I had seen before
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

chownah
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:18 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:55 am

Chownah,

I had an interesting conversation today with a friend who also knew UG and we talked about this very issue of No Way Out. This was a common theme in UG's chats with friends, 'is there anything to be done?' Both of us felt that no one could come to the end of samsara by any act of their own will or any manipulation of mind or body, ie., meditation. The very impulse of resistance to your own present state must stop. This insight deepens and weakens the will, your desire to escape from what is, samsara. Samsara is just a name for your own condition. When this resistance disappears, this triggers the event of the natural state. In a sense, a complete letting go of all desire to be something else takes place. You have to struggle a lot to understand that your own struggle is futile. No path means the end of becoming. UG lived this as an example. This is not an heroic struggle. That is a romance novel. There is no victory or gain. It is simply the cessation of ignorance, the deception that you can do something about escaping your own misery. Misery being your ordinary life and all its strategies, philosophies, and tactics, to achieve enlightenment, awakening, ultimate truth, etc. It's a hard pill to swallow. When you see such a person like UG, he was empty of any self reference or self aggrandizement. He never waivered from this. There was no inner life going on. He told me once, 'you don't know if you are alive or dead'.
I think that these are musing from you and your friend.

I have no intention to do an extensive study of ugk's presentations.....but so far what I have seen of them (a couple of articles and less than an hour of video) it seems that he says that there is no way out of samsara and that this is at odds with what the buddha taught. If you can show something of his which might say otherwise I would be glad to be able to see it.
chownah
But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
I must have misunderstood your post. You said "I had an interesting conversation today with a friend " and "Both of us felt that no one could ".....and then you made a one paragraph post and I did not see any indication that you were changing from what you and your fiends were conversing about to what ugk presented.

So....if its not too much trouble could you bring a link to something which shows "what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara". So far with the little bit I have read (very little bit as I have said) it seems his message is that there is no way out.....so I would be interested in seeing where explains what "one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara".
chownah

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:54 pm

aflatun wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:49 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:10 am
This is an excellent video of UG being interviewed in San Francisco in the mid or late 80's. Maybe one can get a better 'feel' of what he was like in a simple one on one conversation rather than some of the more 'dramatic' videos of him showing him rejecting the rediculous comments and attitudes of most of the people that came to see him.

When you sat there in the room with him watching this endless circus of questioners seeking something to satisfy themselves with, you would begin to see all of this in yourself. That you were doing the same thing, trying to understand, trying to capture something that is not capturable, and how this movement creates problems that perpetuate themselves. This movement was completely absent in UG. He was not in any state or suggested there was any state to be in. He said this change in him took place through a physical transformation that was triggered through his seeing that he was deceiving himself, fooling himself.
Thanks for sharing this, very different vibe compared to the videos I had seen before
Most of the videos are put up by people who want some excitement, some entertainment. Oddly enough, the people who hung around him were the neediest type of people. UG never tried to change anyone. Anyone could approach him. I was around in those days when that video was made. It was a very memorable time for me.

Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:03 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:22 pm

Interesting theory. Do you have anything from the suttas which supports it? It seems that in the buddha's time there were alot of arahants walking around and that people recognized them but maybe all of the suttas which mention arahants were composed by arahants. Throughout most of the suttas, ananda was not an arahant if I remember correctly. Are you saying then that ananda could not recognize an arahant?
chownah
I don't have a sutta reference on tap, unfortunately. For me, I think it is a matter of inference more than anything else. Did everyone who came into contact with the Buddha develop faith in him? Did they believe he was fully enlightened? No. Okay, but maybe SOME people were able to tell, while others were not. Maybe kamma was at play? Or is it rather that unenlightened persons cannot know directly - 100% - but are able to develop faith in the enlightenment of others.

The suttas do say that one would have to live with and observe the behavior of someone closely for a long time to determine if they were indeed free from the defilements. I would argue that the vast majority of persons have simply never conducted such painstaking observations.

If you are enlightened yourself, and especially if you have developed the ability to read other being's minds, you could directly know whether another being was noble or not. Otherwise, you could easily rule out certain individuals - those committing serious moral transgressions, for example - but I seriously doubt if there is any external sign that would allow you to differentiate between an ordinary virtuous person and an enlightened being.

Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm

But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
Did UG believe that physical death was the end of all experience?

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:18 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm
chownah wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:18 pm

I think that these are musing from you and your friend.

I have no intention to do an extensive study of ugk's presentations.....but so far what I have seen of them (a couple of articles and less than an hour of video) it seems that he says that there is no way out of samsara and that this is at odds with what the buddha taught. If you can show something of his which might say otherwise I would be glad to be able to see it.
chownah
But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
I must have misunderstood your post. You said "I had an interesting conversation today with a friend " and "Both of us felt that no one could ".....and then you made a one paragraph post and I did not see any indication that you were changing from what you and your fiends were conversing about to what ugk presented.

So....if its not too much trouble could you bring a link to something which shows "what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara". So far with the little bit I have read (very little bit as I have said) it seems his message is that there is no way out.....so I would be interested in seeing where explains what "one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara".
chownah
Chownah, UG never says, per se, anything about samsara. He never used that word. Because we are on a Buddhist board, I am relating my experience of how UG's comments could fit in with the Buddha's teaching.

Here is just one quote from one of the books on UG. BTW, he never wrote anything. All are from recordings which were transcripted into books. I think the following relates to what you are asking about.

Quote from 'The Natural State': Whatever you do in the pursuit of truth or reality takes you away from your own very natural
state in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a
result of your effort. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express
itself. That is why I call this your natural state. You're always in that state. What prevents
what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the
wrong direction.
So all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that
consciousness. You may not like the word contamination but all that you consider sacred, holy
and profound is a contamination. There's nothing that you can do, it's not in your hands. This
is something which I can't give because you have it. It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which
you already have. There isn't anything to get from anybody. You have what I have. I say you
are there.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:29 pm

Garrib wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:05 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:47 pm

But, I just told you what he says one must do before there is any possibility of ending samsara. You have to understand that your own mind, which is conditioned, is not capable of freeing itself of samsara. Everything you do is a product of this conditioning and the outcome works against what you are trying to achieve. Look at all the time you've put into doing what you've been doing and see that nothing has really changed very much. Maybe your behavior has changed, which is alright, but is not the end of samsara. All of these practitioners you know are in the same boat. All trying to free themselves from themselves. It may be a noble effort, but if falls short because the mind cannot go beyond itself. Your thinking is limited and deceiving you. UG tried continuously to point this out to people. Did anyone get it? Who knows? Not my concern. It's a total letting go, a surrender, a death of an illusion.
Did UG believe that physical death was the end of all experience?
A complicated question that he did talk about. You'd have to read what he said about his own 'death experience' in 'The Biology Of Enlightenment', by Mukunda Rao.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Mkoll » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:38 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Quote from 'The Natural State': Whatever you do in the pursuit of truth or reality takes you away from your own very natural
state in which you always are. It's not something you can acquire, attain or accomplish as a
result of your effort. All that you do makes it impossible for what already is there to express
itself. That is why I call this your natural state. You're always in that state. What prevents
what is there from expressing itself in its own way is the search. The search is always in the
wrong direction.
So all that you consider very profound, all that you consider sacred, is a contamination in that
consciousness. You may not like the word contamination but all that you consider sacred, holy
and profound is a contamination. There's nothing that you can do, it's not in your hands. This
is something which I can't give because you have it. It is ridiculous to ask for a thing which
you already have. There isn't anything to get from anybody. You have what I have. I say you
are there.
It sounds like his view is very close to the "doctrine of non-causality" view described in MN 60:
A. "There are some contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is no causality, no requisite condition, for the defilement of beings. Beings are defiled without causality, without requisite condition. There is no causality, no requisite condition, for the purification of beings. Beings are purified without causality, without requisite condition. There is no strength, no effort, no human energy, no human endeavor. All living beings, all life, all beings, all souls are powerless, devoid of strength, devoid of effort. Subject to the changes of fate, serendipity, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six great classes of birth.'
The sutta goes on to describe this view further:
A1. "Now, householders, of those contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — 'There is no cause, no requisite condition, for the defilement of beings... Subject to the changes of fate, serendipity, and nature, they experience pleasure and pain in the six great classes of birth' — it can be expected that, shunning these three skillful activities — good bodily conduct, good verbal conduct, good mental conduct — they will adopt & practice these three unskillful activities: bad bodily conduct, bad verbal conduct, bad mental conduct. Why is that? Because those venerable contemplatives & brahmans do not see, in unskillful activities, the drawbacks, the degradation, and the defilement; nor in skillful activities the rewards of renunciation, resembling cleansing.

A2. "Because there actually is causality, the view of one who thinks, 'There is no causality' is his wrong view. Because there actually is causality, when he is resolved that 'There is no causality,' that is his wrong resolve. Because there actually is causality, when he speaks the statement, 'There is no causality,' that is his wrong speech. Because there actually is causality, when he says that 'There is no causality,' he makes himself an opponent to those arahants who teach causality. Because there actually is causality, when he persuades another that 'There is no causality,' that is persuasion in what is not true Dhamma. And in that persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, he exalts himself and disparages others. Whatever good habituation he previously had is abandoned, while bad habituation is manifested. And this wrong view, wrong resolve, wrong speech, opposition to the arahants, persuasion in what is not true Dhamma, exaltation of self, & disparagement of others: These many evil, unskillful activities come into play, in dependence on wrong view.

A3. "With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'If there is no causality, then — with the breakup of the body, after death — this venerable person has made himself safe. But if there is causality, then this venerable person — on the breakup of the body, after death — will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Even if we didn't speak of causality, and there weren't the true statement of those venerable contemplatives & brahmans, this venerable person is still criticized in the here-&-now by the observant as a person of bad habits & wrong view: one who holds to a doctrine of non-causality.' If there really is a next world, then this venerable person has made a bad throw twice: in that he is criticized by the observant here-&-now, and in that — with the breakup of the body, after death — he will reappear in a plane of deprivation, a bad destination, a lower realm, hell. Thus this safe-bet teaching, when poorly grasped & poorly adopted by him, covers (only) one side, and leaves behind the possibility of the skillful.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:24 am

Mkoll,

Because you interpret everything through someone else's words, whatever another may say in a different way will seem inaccurate or wrong. This is a basic problem that most seekers have. They hold up someone or something as The Truth, and compare everything else to that. Part of being honest with yourself is coming face to face with this fact. Somehow, each and every one of us must pass through the veil of words that is obscuring whatever this natural state is.

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