On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Saengnapha
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On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:26 am

I ran across this on a Buddhist blog and thought I would post it here for people to read. Having personally known U.G. for almost 40 years (he died in 2007), he has left an indelible impression on me. He was not an easy man to pigeon-hole. He knew your game better than you did and never ceased to point it out. This often went misunderstood as 'personal' criticism and many got the idea that he was a cranky bastard ready to read you the riot act on a moment's notice. But, his underlying composure of peace and clarity was unmistakable for anyone who cared to look further. So many misunderstandings and interpretations about who or what he was circulate through the 'spiritual' circles of people who never really knew him or spent any time around him. So much judgement and petty perceptions were common among those who were casually interested in a 'philosopher'. For myself, he was the most honest man I have ever met, but he was certainly not 'perfect' by any means except in his natural perfection of his own nature. As someone else said of him: 'He was an event of nature'.

Meggo
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Meggo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:37 am

Wow you have known him for 40 years. I'm jealous! :bow:

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by DooDoot » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:19 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:26 am
I ran across this on a Buddhist blog and thought...
The impression gained here is U.G.K thought thought/thinking is a self, as follows:
There is no such thing as a seat located in any particular individual. What there is, is thought. Whenever a thought takes its birth there, you have created an entity or a point, and in reference to that point you are experiencing things. Every time a thought is born you are born.
If this is true, this gives the impression freedom from "selfing" can only be temporary because a human life cannot function without thought, which included the life of U.G.K; where every word U.G.K ever spoke was obviously the product of thought (vaci sankhara).Therefore, freedom from suffering could only be temporary if every time a thought is born the 'self' or 'you' are born. The Pali suttas say conceiving the idea of self is suffering, as follows:
Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should he yearn?

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn140
...he does not take a stand about ‘my self.’ He has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising... SN 12.15
Therefore, it seems the doctrine of U.G.K was different to the Pali suttas (SN 22.59), which say thinking is not-self (anatta).

While the Pali suttas (SN 22.81) do say 'self' is a product of ignorant thought fabrication, the Pali suttas, unlike U.G.K, do not say every thought is a 'self' or an 'entity'.

There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma — assumes form to be the self. That assumption is a fabrication. Now what is the cause, what is the origination, what is the birth, what is the coming-into-existence of that fabrication? To an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person, touched by that which is felt born of contact with ignorance, craving arises. That fabrication is born of that.

SN 22.81 https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

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robertk
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by robertk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am

it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm

The article which was linked to in the OP shows some ugk writings which are consistent with the buddha dhama. Probably cherry picked out of all of his writings. I'm wondering what we would find if someone cherry picked the things where are most at odds with the buddha dhamma.
chownah

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Kim OHara
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Kim OHara » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:33 pm

robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am
it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....
One click away, as so much is now: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U._G._Krishnamurti
Interesting guy.

:coffee:
Kim

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm

robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am
it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....
Not sure what you would like to know. Is there something in particular?

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm
The article which was linked to in the OP shows some ugk writings which are consistent with the buddha dhama. Probably cherry picked out of all of his writings. I'm wondering what we would find if someone cherry picked the things where are most at odds with the buddha dhamma.
chownah
Just ask Doo Doot. He'll find something. :shrug:

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by aflatun » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:45 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am
it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....
Not sure what you would like to know. Is there something in particular?
Loaded question, but can you give a summary of his teachings based on your experience with him? I've watched some videos and while I find some things he says interesting, and his sometimes rough handling of his followers entertaining, I have to say I can't quite follow him!

And...How did he feel about your interest in Buddhism?
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

chownah
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:36 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm
The article which was linked to in the OP shows some ugk writings which are consistent with the buddha dhama. Probably cherry picked out of all of his writings. I'm wondering what we would find if someone cherry picked the things where are most at odds with the buddha dhamma.
chownah
Just ask Doo Doot. He'll find something. :shrug:
Does this imply that everything you know of him is pretty much in line with the buddha's teachings?
chownah

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robertk
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by robertk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:40 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am
it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....
Not sure what you would like to know. Is there something in particular?
Anything at all. Maybe an interesting anecdote..

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:25 pm

chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:36 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm
chownah wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm
The article which was linked to in the OP shows some ugk writings which are consistent with the buddha dhama. Probably cherry picked out of all of his writings. I'm wondering what we would find if someone cherry picked the things where are most at odds with the buddha dhamma.
chownah
Just ask Doo Doot. He'll find something. :shrug:
Does this imply that everything you know of him is pretty much in line with the buddha's teachings?
chownah
According to some, even Mahayana, Zen, Pure Land, & Dzogchen are not in line with the Buddha's teachings. Obviously, I have no problem with his teachings as there was no teaching from U.G.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:31 pm

robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:40 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:37 pm
robertk wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:23 am
it would be interesting to.hear more about U.G....
Not sure what you would like to know. Is there something in particular?
Anything at all. Maybe an interesting anecdote..
To further what I replied to chownah, when you visited him, he would often ask why you came and tell you that he had nothing to give you. He insisted that he had no teaching. He always threw you back on yourself and confronted you with your own search. He would often remark that what you are looking for doesn't exist. That what he was talking about was the complete end of 'you'.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by binocular » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:15 pm

Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:31 pm
To further what I replied to chownah, when you visited him, he would often ask why you came and tell you that he had nothing to give you. He insisted that he had no teaching. He always threw you back on yourself and confronted you with your own search. He would often remark that what you are looking for doesn't exist.
Who is this "you"?

I wouldn't go to see UGK. I read a bit of his teachings and I realized I had nothing to ask him, no reason to visit him.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:24 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:15 pm
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:31 pm
To further what I replied to chownah, when you visited him, he would often ask why you came and tell you that he had nothing to give you. He insisted that he had no teaching. He always threw you back on yourself and confronted you with your own search. He would often remark that what you are looking for doesn't exist.
Who is this "you"?

I wouldn't go to see UGK. I read a bit of his teachings and I realized I had nothing to ask him, no reason to visit him.
You, is a second person pronoun. This was the answer UG gave to people who asked 'what is I, what is you, and so forth. For him, it was just used for communication purposes with no reference to a 'self', or 'no-self'. I must go to the bathroom doesn't imply a 'self' going to the john.

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:10 am

This is an excellent video of UG being interviewed in San Francisco in the mid or late 80's. Maybe one can get a better 'feel' of what he was like in a simple one on one conversation rather than some of the more 'dramatic' videos of him showing him rejecting the rediculous comments and attitudes of most of the people that came to see him.

When you sat there in the room with him watching this endless circus of questioners seeking something to satisfy themselves with, you would begin to see all of this in yourself. That you were doing the same thing, trying to understand, trying to capture something that is not capturable, and how this movement creates problems that perpetuate themselves. This movement was completely absent in UG. He was not in any state or suggested there was any state to be in. He said this change in him took place through a physical transformation that was triggered through his seeing that he was deceiving himself, fooling himself.

Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:11 pm

^ I didn't watch the whole video, but it sounds like he was just talking about how we are all automatons - physical/mental determinism - and that there is no enlightenment, no rebirth, no heaven, etc...and that all of the world's religious leaders were quacks. So, sounds extremely remote from Buddhism to me!

Saengnapha
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:44 am

Garrib wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:11 pm
^ I didn't watch the whole video, but it sounds like he was just talking about how we are all automatons - physical/mental determinism - and that there is no enlightenment, no rebirth, no heaven, etc...and that all of the world's religious leaders were quacks. So, sounds extremely remote from Buddhism to me!
UG was not a Buddhist. There was no Buddhist teaching coming forth from him. The article I posted was a Buddhist's take on UG, comparing some of the qualities of UG to the Dharma seals within Buddhism.

His dialectic is similar to the Madhyamaka in the sense that he doesn't teach that there is something to attain, to know, to become unified with. His logic brings you face to face with emptiness if you take the time to follow his reasoning. Like Nagarjuna, he rejected any kind of supramundane position. But UG's uniqueness was in his description of what he called 'the natural state'. This was not a Buddhist 'space' or Advaitin 'self realization'. It was a natural event in nature that left him transformed physically through his realization of what ignorance was all about. The cessation of ignorance triggered all of this. This is not what is usually mentioned in scriptures, etc. It is an oral tradition apart from any religious pursuit.

Garrib
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Garrib » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:58 am

I'm just saying, apparently (based on the video I watched) his realization led him to conclude that we are deterministic biological robots and there is no life after death. According to my understanding of Buddhism, the end of ignorance would not lead to that kind of conclusion. I don't have anything against him personally, and he strikes me as having been a rather likable person.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by chownah » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:08 am

after watching the first two episodes of the video it seems to me that ugk's presentation can be understood in a way which it very similar to what the buddha taught (if one understands the buddha's teaching in a certain way) but the main difference is that the buddha claims that there is a way out of samsara and ugk claims that there is not. Since there are very few (none?) credible clear examples of those who have escaped samsara walking around today and there are alot of people saying that they are trying to escape but as of yet have not, it is difficult in the absence of faith to know who is right.
chownah

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