On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:41 am

auto wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:40 am
binocular wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:22 am
auto wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:08 pm
It remind me off the actual freedom movement led by guy named Richard, who is similar.

Someone should count the times this kind of thing has been said already!
for real it can be said by a robot who wants to destroy life.
Find a robot who doesn't want to destroy life.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by auto » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:56 pm

Everything what has born will die.
Body is technically already immortal, but the cells what regenerate are degenerate compared to last generation.
The degeneration can be stopped and reversed, fixed, so you start heal, we heal anyway at least most of us, not healing is a defect a genetical fault.

Human body is basically a prototype and using its already existing functions, what is wrong is they are encumbered by environment and that could mean in a beautiful easy world we live longer, in heavenly world there are longer lifespawns for that possible reason.

So what for me budhism taught is the mental qualities what are dominant to the environment affect and if to replace bad quality with more decent one then the environmental affect lessens and body rejunevalates faster. And of course i don't rule out advanged civilizations with evil agenda to use technology to control us.

So the UG cosmology seem inferior to the view i hold.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by auto » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:12 pm

There is no teaching of mine, and never shall be one. "Teaching" is not the word for it. A teaching implies a method or a system, a technique or a new way of thinking to be applied in order to bring about a transformation in your way of life. What I am saying is outside the field of teachability; it is simply a description of the way I am functioning. It is just a description of the natural state of man -- this is the way you, stripped of the machinations of thought, are also functioning.
The natural state is not the state of a self-realized God-realized man, it is not a thing to be achieved or attained, it is not a thing to be willed into existence; it is there -- it is the living state. This state is just the functional activity of life. By 'life' I do not mean something abstract; it is the life of the senses, functioning naturally without the interference of thought. Thought is an interloper, which thrusts itself into the affairs of the senses. It has a profit motive: thought directs the activity of the senses to get something out of them, and uses them to give continuity to itself.
Your natural state has no relationship whatsoever with the religious states of bliss, beatitude and ecstasy; they lie within the field of experience. Those who have led man on his search for religiousness throughout the centuries have perhaps experienced those religious states. So can you. They are thought-induced states of being, and as they come, so do they go. Krishna Consciousness, Buddha Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, or what have you, are all trips in the wrong direction: they are all within the field of time. The timeless can never be experienced, can never be grasped, contained, much less given expression to, by any man. That beaten track will lead you nowhere. There is no oasis situated yonder; you are stuck with the mirage.
This state is a physical condition of your being. It is not some kind of psychological mutation. It is not a state of mind into which you can fall one day, and out of it the next day. You can't imagine the extent to which, as you are now, thought pervades and interferes with the functioning of every cell in your body. Coming into your natural state will blast every cell, every gland, every nerve. It is a chemical change. An alchemy of some sort takes place. But this state has nothing to do with the experiences of chemical drugs such as LSD. Those are experiences; this is not.
You can never understand the tremendous peace that is always there within you, that is your natural state. Your trying to create a peaceful state of mind is in fact creating disturbance within you. You can only talk of peace, create a state of mind and say to yourself that you are very peaceful -- but that is not peace; that is violence. So there is no use in practicing peace, there is no reason to practice silence. Real silence is explosive; it is not the dead state of mind that spiritual seekers think. "Oh, I am at peace with myself! There is silence, a tremendous silence! I experience silence!" -- that doesn't mean anything at all. This is volcanic in its nature: it's bubbling all the time -- the energy, the life -- that is its quality. You may ask how I know. I don't know. Life is aware of itself, if we can put it that way -- it is conscious of itself.
When I talk of 'feeling', I do not mean the same thing that you do. Actually, feeling is a physical response, a thud in the thymus. The thymus, one of the endocrine glands, is located under the breast bone. The doctors tell us that it is active through childhood until puberty and then becomes dormant. When you come into your natural state, this gland is re-activated. Sensations are felt there; you don't translate them as 'good' or 'bad'; they are just a thud. If there is a movement outside of you -- a clock pendulum swinging, or a bird flying across your field of vision -- that movement is also felt in the thymus. The whole of your being is that movement or vibrates with that sound; there is no separation. This does not mean that you identify yourself with that bird or whatever -- "I am that flying bird." There is no 'you' there, nor is there any object. What causes that sensation, you don't know. You do not even know that it is a sensation.
The body has an extraordinary mechanism for renewing itself. This is necessary because the senses in the natural state are functioning at the peak of their sensitivity all the time. So, when the senses become tired, the body goes through death. This is real physical death, not some mental state. It can happen one or more times a day. You do not decide to go through this death; it descends upon you. It feels at first as if you have been given an anaesthetic: the senses become increasingly dull, the heartbeat slows, the feet and hands become ice cold, and the whole body becomes stiff like a corpse. Energy flows from all over the body towards some point. It happens differently every time. The whole process takes forty-eight or forty-nine minutes. During this time the stream of thoughts continues, but there is no reading of the thoughts. At the end of this period you 'conk out': the stream of thought is cut. There is no way of knowing how long that cut lasts -- it is not an experience. There is nothing you can say about that time of being 'conked out' -- that can never become part of your conscious existence or conscious thinking.
got to say, his followers should look more into waht he say and not spread information with wrong empazys so i would slander him less.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:17 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 10:29 am
No, that's nothing. It should have been him and Osho together, for example, and an audience who challenges them and pits them against each other, right there on the spot.
Yeah, and let's include Deepak Chopra to liven things up a bit. :tongue:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by auto » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:47 pm

UG didn't say to drop practices, to get correcter attitude or emphazys what he says
Does beauty lie in the eye of the beholder? Does it lie in the object? Where does it lie? Beauty is thought-induced. I do not stop and write poems about the mountain in front of me. What happens is that I am walking and suddenly see something different because the light has changed. I have nothing to do with it. It is not that something new is seen, or that there is a total attention; there has been a sudden change in the light itself. There is no recognition of that as beauty. Clarity is there, which probably wasn't there before the light changed. Then this consciousness suddenly expands to the size of the object in front of the body, and the lungs take a deep breath. This is the pranayama (breath control); not what you are doing, sitting in a corner and inhaling through one nostril and exhaling through the other; this pranayama is going on all the time. So, there is consciousness of a sudden change in the breathing, and then it moves on to something else, the mooing of a cow or the howling of a jackal. It is always moving; it does not linger on something which thought has decided is beautiful. There is no one directing.
thought he himself slanders swamins or gurus who know about intenal channels, you can practice them and its natural state. What i think is he didn't open a channel where you can do practice and not violate natural state and can willfully direct, there is a self directing and it doesn't kick you outf natura state or something.
What i think is he didn't had access to alchemy, internal art, basically those who heal dormant sicknesses, replenish internal energy and can sustain themselves by it eventually.

UG state or progression stage is known, i doubt its the last or there is nothing else to do than being spontaneous, what probably is just one quality of natural state.
--Also the ones who compile these quotes, maybe they present some different image, maybe the things he say in these quotes are not so conscious for UG himself, basically saying stuff what he hasn't even himself properly realized.
What you are looking for does not exist. You would rather tread an enchanted ground with beatific visions of a radical transformation of that non-existent self of yours into a state of being which is conjured up by some bewitching phrases. That takes you away from your natural state -- it is a movement away from yourself. To be yourself requires extraordinary intelligence. You are 'blessed' with that intelligence; nobody need give it to you, nobody can take it away from you. He who lets that express itself in its own way is a natural man.
Then he says something like this. So if you are yourself, then why not you can't do practices..that's what is confusing. Natural state is jhana, dwelling here and now, 8 jhanas, 8 is peak of perception, cessation happens because there isn't another refiner to arise.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by auto » Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:29 pm

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
3. "Venerable sir, there are these various views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines or world-doctrines.[2] Does the abandoning and discarding of such views come about in a monk who is only at the beginning of his [meditative] reflections?"[3]
"Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[4] these views arise, in which they underlie and become active,[5] is seen with right wisdom[6] as it actually is,[7] thus: 'This is not mine,[8] this I am not,[9] this is not my self'[10] — then the abandoning of these views, their discarding,[11] takes place in him [who thus sees].
Maha-Cunda Thera was the brother of the venerable Sariputta Thera.
Self-doctrines or world-doctrines (atta-vada, lokavada). According to Comy., this refers: (a) to the twenty types of personality-belief (sakkaya-ditthi), i.e., four for each of the five aggregates (khandha); (b) to eight wrong views about self and world, as being eternal, not eternal, both eternal and not eternal, neither eternal nor not eternal, and the same four alternatives concerning finite and infinite.
In a monk who is only at the beginning of his (meditative) reflections (adim-eva manasikaroto). Comy.: "This refers to one who is at the beginning of his insight-meditation (vipassana-bhavana) and has not yet attained to stream-entry," when the fetter of personality-belief is finally eliminated. The beginner's insight-practice extends from the "discernment of mentality and corporeality" (namarupa-pariccheda) up to the "knowledge of rise and fall" (udayabbaya-ñana), on which see Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chs. XVIII, XX, XXI.
According to the Comy., the Thera's question concerns those who overrate the degree of their achievement, i.e., those who believe that, in their meditative practice, they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. Overestimation (abhimana), in that sense, "does not arise in ignorant common people (bala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly life, nor does it arise in Noble Disciples (ariya-savaka); because in a stream-winner the overestimation does not arise that he is a once-returner, etc.

Self-overestimation can occur only in one who actually practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by way of tranquillity or insight. Maha-Cunda Thera, being an arahant, was no self-overrater himself, but in formulating his question, he put himself in the place of one who is; or, as others say, there may have been such "self-overraters" among his pupils, and for conveying to them the Buddha's reply, he put his question.
(The object) in which (yattha). Comy.: yattha (where) = yasmim arammane. The object, or basis, the five aggregates, because all false views on self and world can refer only to the five aggregates or to one of them. See Discourse on the Snake Simile (Wheel No. 47/48), p. 8, and Anatta and Nibbana, by Nyanaponika Thera (Wheel No. 11), p. 18 (quotation).
In which these views arise (yattha uppajjanti), i.e., arise for the first time, without having occurred earlier (Comy.).
Underlie (anusenti), i.e., habitually occur (cf. anusaya, "tendency," which may be latent or active). Comy.: "This refers to views which, having been indulged in repeatedly, have become strong and have not been removed." Sub.Comy.: "By ultimate elimination (samuccheda-vinaya-vasena)."
Become active (samudacaranti). Comy.: "Wrong views have arrived at the (action-) doors of body and speech," i.e., which have found expression in words and deeds.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by form » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:38 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:26 pm
chownah wrote:
Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:29 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:09 pm

Ever met him?
I don't need to have met him....I simply take your advice from another thread which is "After all, aren't all views understood as deluded by the Buddha? " It seems that you are of the view that all views are deluded so this would it seems apply to UGK as well.
All views need to be discarded including the Buddha's and U.G's. Forget about deluded or not deluded. These people serve to get your attention, to get you contemplating all of this. That's good! The rest is up to you. You can't take anything they say and make it your own because it is not your own. What is your own is your present experience. When you 'enter' your own experience, you discard what you know about it. Perhaps this is not easy to understand. It is like the subject loses its center. That center is knowledge, all your conditioned thoughts and feelings. When there is no center, there is not-knowing. There is joy, rapture, and a knowingness that is not predicated on fabrication. It is a bodily state of dispassion minus the labeling. Conceptualization doesn't touch it.
This is obviously what the buddha taught at a higher level.

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Re: On U.G. Krishnamurti:The Dharma Seals Of A Non-Buddhist

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:19 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:55 pm
So, what's the connection?
Yes what is the Theravada's connection to this person? Seems like this whole thread is about exploring this guy and his teachings, at best a comparative study.
Connections to Other Paths
Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?

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