Chan Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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bodom
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Chan Buddhism

Post by bodom »

I've been doing some reading lately on Chan Buddhism. I have always had a deep affinity for Soto Zen practice as that was the tradition I started in.

I have noticed that Chan Buddhism, despite the focus on the Bodhisattva path, also emphasizes key Early Buddhist concepts like the four noble truths, eightfold path, three characteristics and developing samatha and vipassana together etc. and more so than any other Mahayana tradition I have come across. There is also a focus on the study of the agamas as well as the prajna parimitas.

Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.

Thanks.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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retrofuturist
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:46 pm Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.
I've read a book or two, and found them to be quite interesting... and what I found overlaps with your observations.

The only thing that's really resonated that I'd recommend is Verses on the Faith Mind by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

:sage:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Javi
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by Javi »

The Chinese Chan Buddhists are much more likely to refer to the Agamas than the Japanese AFAIK.

The Vietnamese too, possibility because of their closeness to Theravada countries (and the fact that there is Vietnamese theravada). Also Thich Nat Hahn is one of the few Zen folks I've seen actually cite and publish material on the early Buddhist texts. And of course one cannot fail to mention venerable Thich Minh Chau.
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14
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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by Nicholas Weeks »

bodom wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:46 pm
Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.
Thanks.
:namaste:
Master Hsuan Hua taught whatever practice would benefit beings, but his roots and main practice was Chan. There are several of his books (and e-books) focused on Chan. Try this one the Chan Handbook which is also in print I think.

http://www.cttbusa.org/chan/chan.asp

Also this one translated by a disciple of Master Hua, published by Kalavinka Press:
The Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime
By Shramana Zhiyi (Chih-i) - (538-597 ce)

This classic, by Master Zhiyi, explains the six practices crucial to success in traditional Indian Buddhist breath (anapana) and calming-and-insight (samatha-vipasyana) meditation. Correctly implemented, these six "gates" lead the practitioner to realize the third of the four truths (cessation), of which the "sublimity" referenced in the title is one of the four canonically-described practice aspects.
Last edited by Nicholas Weeks on Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
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mikenz66
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Bodom,

Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what you are asking. In broad terms "Chan" encompasses quite a lot of East Asian Buddhism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism

I have not had specific experience of practice, but I know a few Fo Guang Shan people though various connections. Ven Huifeng, a Fo Guang Shan Bhikkshu from New Zealand used to post here, and is easy to find: https://www.facebook.com/huifeng.shi He did a PhD in Hong Kong and now teaches in Taiwan.

The meditative practises Ven Huifeng, and others, describe is, as you say, development of samatha and vipassana that would not seem out of place in a Theravada context. Fo Guang Shan, of course, also emphasises community engagement, and the New Zealand Abbess (no problem with Bhikshuni ordination in East Asia...) often says that her practice is engagement. They have strong connections with the community, and ran a relief centre after the earthquakes of 2011.

:heart:
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bodom
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by bodom »

mikenz66 wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:54 pm Hi Bodom,

Perhaps you could be a little more specific about what you are asking. In broad terms "Chan" encompasses quite a lot of East Asian Buddhism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism

I have not had specific experience of practice, but I know a few Fo Guang Shan people though various connections. Ven Huifeng, a Fo Guang Shan Bhikkshu from New Zealand used to post here, and is easy to find: https://www.facebook.com/huifeng.shi He did a PhD in Hong Kong and now teaches in Taiwan.

The meditative practises Ven Huifeng, and others, describe is, as you say, development of samatha and vipassana that would not seem out of place in a Theravada context. Fo Guang Shan, of course, also emphasises community engagement, and the New Zealand Abbess (no problem with Bhikshuni ordination in East Asia...) often says that her practice is engagement. They have strong connections with the community, and ran a relief centre after the earthquakes of 2011.

:heart:
Mike
Thanks Mike. In particular I'm asking about Chinese Buddhism.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by bodom »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:54 pm Greetings,
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:46 pm Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.
I've read a book or two, and found them to be quite interesting... and what I found overlaps with your observations.

The only thing that's really resonated that I'd recommend is Verses on the Faith Mind by Chien-chih Seng-ts'an

:sage:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks retro I've always been fond of that discourse.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by bodom »

Will wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:44 pm
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:46 pm
Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.
Thanks.
:namaste:
Master Hsuan Hua taught whatever practice would benefit beings, but his roots and main practice was Chan. There are several of his books (and e-books) focused on Chan. Try this one the Chan Handbook which is also in print I think.

http://www.cttbusa.org/chan/chan.asp

Also this one translated by a disciple of Master Hua, published by Kalavinka Press:
The Six Dharma Gates to the Sublime
By Shramana Zhiyi (Chih-i) - (538-597 ce)

This classic, by Master Zhiyi, explains the six practices crucial to success in traditional Indian Buddhist breath (anapana) and calming-and-insight (samatha-vipasyana) meditation. Correctly implemented, these six "gates" lead the practitioner to realize the third of the four truths (cessation), of which the "sublimity" referenced in the title is one of the four canonically-described practice aspects.
Thanks Will. I've read some works by Hsuan Hua as many of Ajahn Chahs western disciples at Abhayagiri mention him in there teachings. He is actually the one who donated the land to them to build Abhayagiri.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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mikenz66
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

bodom wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:07 am Thanks Mike. In particular I'm asking about Chinese Buddhism.
OK. I guess that Chinese Chan is particularly preserved/accessible in Taiwan (and Taiwan-connected organisations) these days. I'm no expert on the historical details, but I gather that a lot of Bhkkhunis and Bhikkhus migrated to Taiwan to escape Communist persecution. In these talks on Bhikkhunis: http://www.audiodharma.org/series/7/talk/8223/ it is stated that the Bhikshunis were more proactive in leaving, which is why Bhikshunis far outnumber Bhikshus there. The large Bhikshuni population also explains why a number of Theravada Bhikkhuni ordinations have involved Fo Guang Shan Bhikshunis.

:heart:
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Caodemarte
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by Caodemarte »

Fo Guang Shan Is not a specifically Chan school, but a new religious order.

Dharma Drum is a good resource (http://www.dharmadrum.org/) for information on orthodox, yet modern, Chan. Japanese Soto and Rinzai Zen (Korean Seon, and Vietnamese Thien come from Chan. There are no substantive differences among the various national forms, although the emphasis of individual teachers and sub-traditions may vary In terms of style Chinese Buddhism in general is much , much ess sectarian than traditional Japanese forms.

I would not say that the 4NT, etc. are not stressed, but it is usually taken for granted by teachers that students are already familiar with this.

Zen meditation is usually considered to be both samatha and vipassana or the essence of both by Zen/Chan/Seon/Thien.
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bodom
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by bodom »

Javi wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:34 pm The Chinese Chan Buddhists are much more likely to refer to the Agamas than the Japanese AFAIK.

The Vietnamese too, possibility because of their closeness to Theravada countries (and the fact that there is Vietnamese theravada). Also Thich Nat Hahn is one of the few Zen folks I've seen actually cite and publish material on the early Buddhist texts. And of course one cannot fail to mention venerable Thich Minh Chau.
Thich Naht Hahn was actually my introduction to the Pali Suttas with his translations.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by mikenz66 »

Caodemarte wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:56 am Fo Guang Shan Is not a specifically Chan school, but a new religious order.
Well, yes, they describe themselves as a combination of Buddhist styles. Nevertheless, as I said, much of what I have heard/read from Ven Huifeng about mediation is quite standard. And hearing the Bhikshunis I have met talk about how tough their training was was very interesting. As in Theravada, it would be a mistake to confuse lay outreach activities with the serious sides of practice.

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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by aflatun »

bodom wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:46 pm I've been doing some reading lately on Chan Buddhism. I have always had a deep affinity for Soto Zen practice as that was the tradition I started in.

I have noticed that Chan Buddhism, despite the focus on the Bodhisattva path, also emphasizes key Early Buddhist concepts like the four noble truths, eightfold path, three characteristics and developing samatha and vipassana together more so than any other Mahayana tradition I have come across. There is also a focus on the study of the agamas as well as the prajna parimitas.

Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.

Thanks.

:namaste:
I have the same affinity you have it seems, and the same reading of Chan. I'm a big fan of master Sheng Yen (you could check out his Silent Illumination; many of his talks are on youtube, and his writings can be found on the internet). Also his disciple Guo Gu (Jimmy Yu) posts at ZFI and has great articles out there, and a few books I've yet to delve into. If you're interested in the practice of hua tou I can recommend a book by another Sheng Yen disciple but the name escapes me at the moment.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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bodom
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by bodom »

aflatun wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:54 am
bodom wrote: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:46 pm I've been doing some reading lately on Chan Buddhism. I have always had a deep affinity for Soto Zen practice as that was the tradition I started in.

I have noticed that Chan Buddhism, despite the focus on the Bodhisattva path, also emphasizes key Early Buddhist concepts like the four noble truths, eightfold path, three characteristics and developing samatha and vipassana together more so than any other Mahayana tradition I have come across. There is also a focus on the study of the agamas as well as the prajna parimitas.

Has anyone here experience with practicing in the Chan tradition? Any recommended books? I feel Chan can be a complimentary to my meditation practice.

Thanks.

:namaste:
I have the same affinity you have it seems, and the same reading of Chan. I'm a big fan of master Sheng Yen (you could check out his Silent Illumination; many of his talks are on youtube, and his writings can be found on the internet). Also his disciple Guo Gu (Jimmy Yu) posts at ZFI and has great articles out there, and a few books I've yet to delve into. If you're interested in the practice of hua tou I can recommend a book by another Sheng Yen disciple but the name escapes me at the moment.
Thanks aflatun. Sheng Yen is actually who I have been reading. I have a copy of Silent Illumination sitting next to me. It is the book that sparked my interest in Chan. It is an excellent book. Very simple but very profound. I have another book of his that has been very helpful called Dharma Drum.

I am going to be ordering his book on the 37 bodhi-pakkhiya-dhammas or wings to awakening. I've never heard any Mahayana teachers ever mention them before. Chan is an awesome tradition and I'm glad I came across Sheng Yens books.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Chan Buddhism

Post by Garrib »

Cool thread! I think I might try reading some Sheng Yen too.
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