Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
binocular
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular »

davidbrainerd wrote:I don't want Mohammed ruling me, so I won't stop criticizing him.
But does such criticism achieve its goal?
It seems, rather, that criticism of a person triggers their tendency to dominate, so that they are more likely to want to overpower (and annihilate) the critic. IOW, by criticizing someone, one makes oneself their target.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
davidbrainerd
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd »

binocular wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:I don't want Mohammed ruling me, so I won't stop criticizing him.
But does such criticism achieve its goal?
It seems, rather, that criticism of a person triggers their tendency to dominate, so that they are more likely to want to overpower (and annihilate) the critic. IOW, by criticizing someone, one makes oneself their target.
It doesnt really matter. My constitution is such that I dont back down to bullies. Its the one place logic is out the window. Even with thinking about dating I use logic, and the dont do it because it makes no financial sense. But if a bully is 9 feet tall picking on me that little logic that saya "hey, hes bigger than you" just melts away.
Bundokji
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Bundokji »

davidbrainerd wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:
Bundokji wrote:I think his marriage of Aisha was bad, but for a totally different reasons than the ones you are emphasizing. After his death, she waged a war against his cousin (Ali bin Abi Taleb) which was one of the main contributing factors of the major rift between Sunni and Shiaa Muslims, and might serve as another reminder that the focus on her age when he married her, in the wider scheme, is pretty pity concern.
I'm sure she knew more about Ali's character than we do today. Its interesting that the Hadiths record that some verses of the Koran were lost because Aisha's goat ate them. One verse mentioned is some weird idea about women being able to make an unrelated male into a close relative by breast-feeding him 5 times (thus enablding him to be around her without her husband around). That's a very sick idea, that Mohammed supposedly (according to Hadiths) forced upon a particular disciples' wife. Aisha's goat ate it, resulting in it not being in the Koran today. In other words, Aisha purposefully saved future women from that crazy nonsense. She's a hero.

There is also the fact that after Mohammed attacked a certain Jewish city and killed all the men (according to Hadith) and then raped a woman from that town (according to Hadith) he made that woman cook him dinner. As he was eating the dinner, the Hadith says, he realized it was poisoned, and spit it out, after having eaten quite a bit. From that time forward, he was constantly sick, for the next 6 months, until he died. And Aisha took care of him. But he never got better. Although the ancients didn't think of this, some moderns have come up with the theory that Aisha took advantage to get her revenge for him raping her at 6 or 9, by keeping him sick by poisoning him little by little that whole time. If so, she is a hero again.
I came across the breast feeding story, but i missed the goat part though :rofl:

One of the problems of having a discussion of this sort is that it is easy to come up with random stories exists in the Hadith books, and bring them to a public forum as "quite revealing". All you have to do is to go to one of the anti Muslim websites, even if the website allows the two sides to debate the issue, it would give the impression that those who attack are winning. It is always easy to make a mess than cleaning it up.

Same thing can be said about conspiracy theorists. Just listen to those who claim that 9/11 was secretly organized by the US government (or the Jews). They give you all sort of assertions and present them as facts and reliable info, and along the way, cunningly presenting themselves as the smart asses who don't get deceived. Now, you can spend a lot of time and energy investigating why what they presented is full of non-sense, but why should you bother? If every assertion made by a schmuck is to be taken seriously, the wise would be wasting their life answering fools.

Even some Muslims are guilty of the same thing. They try to present the Quran as a "scientific miracle" full of revelations that only modern science began to understand. They twist both science and the text to make both compatible, using arguments from ignorance and authority. Indeed, there are no limits to human foolishness.

I hate to sound as a broken record, but there are better ways of addressing issues. The feeling of satisfaction we humans get by debunking something we hate is something to be resisted by those who seek wisdom, all in my opinion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,

But Mohammad is dead... being dead, I'd have thought the only way he could "bully" you was to live rent free in your head.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
binocular
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular »

davidbrainerd wrote:It doesnt really matter. My constitution is such that I dont back down to bullies. Its the one place logic is out the window. Even with thinking about dating I use logic, and the dont do it because it makes no financial sense. But if a bully is 9 feet tall picking on me that little logic that saya "hey, hes bigger than you" just melts away.
But Muhammed is dead. And Muslims themselves disagree who has the right understanding of what Mohammed taught. They even kill eachother over it. Who exactly is then your opponent, the one bullying you?

---
retrofuturist wrote:But Mohammad is dead... being dead, I'd have thought the only way he could "bully" you was to live rent free in your head.
I find that the reason why Islam (and some other religions) can feel so challenging, so bullying, is when they hit a person at their weakest points: like one's faith in humanity, or one's belief that life is worth living. For that, it is enough to read something from their scriptures or other texts.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Caodemarte
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Caodemarte »

In right speech one can respect and not agree with and criticize the other. Making up false or dubious historical claims about the dead is done to express hatred and bigotry. It is is clearly not done to understand or even put forward an intellectually honest criticism. It is not right speech.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
binocular
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular »

Caodemarte wrote:Making up or dubious historcal claims about the dead is done to express hatred and bigotry.
What a limited view of the human psyche!
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Caodemarte wrote:In right speech one can respect and not agree with and criticize the other. Making up false or dubious historcal claims about the dead is done to express hatred and bigotry. It is is clearly not done to understand or even put forward an intellectually honest criticism. It is not right speech.
lol what?
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by SarathW »

Indeed, but was it right or wrong?
It depends.
Slavery was legal some distant past now the slavery happens in a different way.
There is a story that Abraham had a sexual relationship with his daughter according to the Bible.
Prostitution was a common thing in the past.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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mikenz66
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by mikenz66 »

SarathW wrote:
Indeed, but was it right or wrong?
It depends.
Slavery was legal some distant past now the slavery happens in a different way.
There is a story that Abraham had a sexual relationship with his daughter according to the Bible.
Prostitution was a common thing in the past.
Prostitution is a common thing in the present. And is is legal to varying degrees in various countries. In some countries, such as New Zealand, it is legal and regulated. In many countries prostitution itself is legal, but organised activities are not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country

:heart:
Mike
SarathW
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by SarathW »

I agree with Mike.
Prostitution is illegal in America.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
davidbrainerd
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings David,

But Mohammad is dead... being dead, I'd have thought the only way he could "bully" you was to live rent free in your head.

Metta,
Paul. :)
His worshippers, including atheists and Buddhists who want to impose Sharia law via their cowardice, are alive.
binocular
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular »

davidbrainerd wrote:His worshippers, including atheists and Buddhists who want to impose Sharia law via their cowardice, are alive.
But as you can see, the general trend seems to be that the more someone is critical of Islam or Mohammad, the more people defend Islam and Mohammad.

It's not clear what an effective strategy against a religion would be. If a religion capitalizes on Social Darwinism and the evolutionary struggle for survival (no matter whether they openly acknowledge it or not), it seems the less likely it is to be defeated or implode into itself.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Disciple
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Disciple »

mikenz66 wrote:
SarathW wrote:
Indeed, but was it right or wrong?
It depends.
Slavery was legal some distant past now the slavery happens in a different way.
There is a story that Abraham had a sexual relationship with his daughter according to the Bible.
Prostitution was a common thing in the past.
Prostitution is a common thing in the present. And is is legal to varying degrees in various countries. In some countries, such as New Zealand, it is legal and regulated. In many countries prostitution itself is legal, but organised activities are not.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_country

:heart:
Mike
Where I live it is legal to sell sexual services but illegal to buy. Retarded law if you ask me.
davidbrainerd
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd »

binocular wrote:
davidbrainerd wrote:His worshippers, including atheists and Buddhists who want to impose Sharia law via their cowardice, are alive.
But as you can see, the general trend seems to be that the more someone is critical of Islam or Mohammad, the more people defend Islam and Mohammad.

It's not clear what an effective strategy against a religion would be. If a religion capitalizes on Social Darwinism and the evolutionary struggle for survival (no matter whether they openly acknowledge it or not), it seems the less likely it is to be defeated or implode into itself.

I wouldn't say that is necessarily the case. Criticizing merely causes the defenders to out themselves. They were already defending with their votes and political donations before you criticized. Now they're just defending with words that defending with votes and money.
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