Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Locked
User avatar
clw_uk
Posts: 4718
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:17 am

From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.

This indicates that Muhammad is not a man worthy of religious respect. Not only did he brake the 4th precept, but he did so in the most horrendous way. Muhammad was a degenerate because of this act, although he also engaged in other less than noble acts. True, he had some good qualities. All men and women do, even Hitler, but I feel what was noble in him can be found elsewhere. As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19458
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:28 am

Greetings,

I'm on my phone now so it's hard for me to access, but I'm sure there's suttas which talk of the criteria by which someone is worthy of respect. Or not.

Can anyone think of any such examples, pertinent to this case?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 1612
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:39 am

clw_uk wrote:From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.
In Buddhism. the word 'understanding' refers to verified personal realisation. Since Muslims dispute this Aisha matter, why bother with unsubstantiated gossip? Personally, I can't imagine Muhammad (PBUH) would have engaged in sexual intercourse with a pre-pubescent girl given Islam is pretty strict. But in the UK child porn is freely available. It sounds ironic how 'liberals' use the 'paedophile' argument to attempt to discredit the sexual strictness of Islam. I think Wikipedia concludes the matter quite logically, which accords with my intuition :
Muslim authors who calculate Aisha's age based on the more detailed information available about her sister Asma estimate that she was over thirteen and perhaps between seventeen and nineteen at the time of her marriage. Muhammad Niknam Arabshahi, an Iranian Islamic scholar and historian, has considered six different approaches[clarification needed] to determining Aisha's age and concluded that she was engaged in her late teens.[29] Using the age of Fatimah as a reference point, the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement scholar Muhammad Ali has estimated that Aisha was over ten years old at the time of marriage and over fifteen at the time of its consummation.

American historian Denise Spellberg has reviewed Islamic literature on Aisha's virginity, age at marriage and age when the marriage was consummated and speculates that Aisha's youth might have been exaggerated to exclude any doubt about her virginity. Spellberg states, "Aisha's age is a major pre-occupation in Ibn Sa'd where her marriage varies between six and seven; nine seems constant as her age at the marriage's consummation." She notes one exception in Ibn Hisham's biography of the Prophet, which suggests that consummation may have occurred when Aisha was age 10, summarizing her review with the note that "these specific references to the bride's age reinforce Aisha's pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity. They also suggest the variability of Aisha's age in the historical record." Early Muslims regarded Aisha's youth as demonstrating her virginity and therefore her suitability as a bride of Muhammad. This issue of her virginity was of great importance to those who supported Aisha's position in the debate of the succession to Muhammad. These supporters considered that as Muhammad's only virgin wife, Aisha was divinely intended for him, and therefore the most credible regarding the debate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha#Acc ... f_adultery
clw_uk wrote:As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
Personally, I honor the Buddha because Buddha taught a path of liberation based in celibacy & viewing the unsatisfactoriness of sex. Therefore, with such clarity of a liberated mind, the Buddha is certainly a superior role model for me. As for Muhammad (PBUH), I never knew him but try to show whatever respect is warranted. Since I have travelled in Muslim countries with morally upright & generous people, I have some mudita (respect) towards the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
May all beings be at ease.
Whatever living beings there may be;
Whether they are weak or strong, omitting none,
The great or the mighty, medium, short or small,
The seen and the unseen,
Those living near and far away,
Those born and to-be-born —
May all beings be at ease!
Peace be upon them (PBUT)! Image
Last edited by DooDoot on Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1466
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by pilgrim » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:11 am

Given the reputation on Mohd and Islam, if he was alive today, I would steer clear of him. Indeed, I would'nt dare criticise him for fear of my own safety.

Garrib
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Garrib » Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:27 am

Nevermind the charges - do you know a lot of Buddhists who spend a lot of time revering Muhammad? This seems like kind of a non-issue as far as I'm concerned.

binocular
Posts: 5090
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular » Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:21 am

clw_uk wrote:From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.

This indicates that Muhammad is not a man worthy of religious respect. Not only did he brake the 4th precept, but he did so in the most horrendous way. Muhammad was a degenerate because of this act, although he also engaged in other less than noble acts. True, he had some good qualities. All men and women do, even Hitler, but I feel what was noble in him can be found elsewhere. As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
There are four brahmaviharas.

SarathW
Posts: 9039
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:31 am

It is not easy to make a judgement on what happened 1500 years ago with 21 century standards.
Getting married in very young was very common.
I believe Buddha married very young too.
Marrying your own sister was also common in Buddha's time.

Perhaps we should see what Muslims are doing today rather than what they did 1500 years ago.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
Bundokji
Posts: 1375
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Bundokji » Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:42 am

I agree with SarathW that using today's morality standards to judge what happened 15 centuries ago is not a good idea. Also in Islam, there are many versions of each story (including this particular one). The biography of Muhammad as well as the Hadith were written long after his death, so Muslim scholars who were trying to be objective included everything, and then developed a ranking system of men who conveyed the Hadith using a very strict standards focusing on if they ever lied and whether they had good memory or not ..etc

The above is a cause of much confusion among Muslims who don't know much about their religion as well we non Muslims who approach the books and citing whatever they find in them, and then accusing Muslims of denying the truth about their religion.

As DooDoot said, the story itself is disputed, and most Muslims believe that Muhammad married Aisha when she was 13 and some say when she was 18. Even according to the story which says he married her when she was nine, this is half of the story. He married her when she was six and she stayed in her father's house until she became nine (until she reached puberty i guess).

To use today's standards to judge very old behavior is clinging to the current conventions (civil law). These days, it is punishable by law to allow a man who is above 18 to have sex with a woman who is below 18, but nature seems to have different opinion. When a female or a male reach puberty, they can have children, so it is permissible for them to have sex. The difference between the two moral systems is that one uses nature to build a convention, and the other uses convention to determine what is natural or normal behavior!

The above does not apply to the physical, but also to the psychological aspect of men and women. When you treat people as children, they will behave as such. The leader of the last military expedition (against the Byzantine Empire) before Muhammad's death was 17 years of age, and his name was Usama Ibn Zayd.

Also the story as mentioned by Craig can be somehow misleading. Muhammad had many wives, some of them were older than him. His first wife (Khadija) was much older than him, and he married her when he was relatively young (and assumingly at the peak of his sexual desire) and yet, he monogamously married her for 25 years, and when she died, he described this year in his life "the year of sorrow".

All following marriages were done either for political reasons, which is to form alliances with other tribes and to bring them to Islam, or to honor and cement the relation with some of his closest companions (Aisha was the daughter of Abu Baker, the first Khalifah after the death of Muhammad), or to break a tradition and to introduce a new rule (as in the case of Zainab Bint Jahsh)
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

form
Posts: 652
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by form » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:46 am

Examining a belief system based on its potential highest attainment will be good enough.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:14 pm

DooDoot wrote:
clw_uk wrote: In Buddhism. the word 'understanding' refers to verified personal realisation. Since Muslims dispute this Aisha matter, why bother with unsubstantiated gossip?
Its from their own books. The only thing they dispute is whether she was 6 or 9, because apparently their sources are contradictory on that point.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:17 pm

clw_uk wrote:From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.
Its from the Muslims' own books, and its actually much worse than that, but its too pervy to even get into, so I won't.
clw_uk wrote:This indicates that Muhammad is not a man worthy of religious respect.
Even aside from this issue he is not worthy of respect. What did he ever do? Go around lying pretending to be a prophet, command murder, engage in murder, take women as slaves, rape his slaves. I don't see anything positive at all about Mohammed or Islam. And the practice of Islam doesn't spread morality. Islamic societies are just cesspools, literal rape cultures, not imaginary ones like college campuses.

Caodemarte
Posts: 831
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:59 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:....Its from their own books. The only thing they dispute is whether she was 6 or 9, because apparently their sources are contradictory on that point.

No, that is simply not true. What is the motive for this stream of unreasoning hatred?
Last edited by Caodemarte on Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Will
Posts: 866
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
Location: So Cal

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:54 pm

The founder of Islam led armies with the motive of conquering and subduing others. His fondness for violence in the name of his cause, does not appeal to me at all.

Suttanipata 540 (or 546) says of our Buddha:
You saw what I was looking for, you knew what I was unsure of, and you carried me across! What mastery! What heights! — this is the ultimate in wisdom. I can give nothing but respect, nothing but honour to this power-house of gentleness, this brother of the sun!
That is the sort of Sage worthy of devotion, not to mention respect.
Whatever one frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. -- MN 19

dharmacorps
Posts: 395
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:06 pm

clw_uk wrote:From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.

This indicates that Muhammad is not a man worthy of religious respect. Not only did he brake the 4th precept, but he did so in the most horrendous way. Muhammad was a degenerate because of this act, although he also engaged in other less than noble acts. True, he had some good qualities. All men and women do, even Hitler, but I feel what was noble in him can be found elsewhere. As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
Even if you did decide for some reason you could judge the founder of a major world religion as unworthy of respect, how does this help you? Or us as Buddhists? Or as people? Is it skillful to ask this? Would that mean muslims on the whole are not worthy of respect? This is a fruitless and divisive question.

Garrib
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Garrib » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:46 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Even if you did decide for some reason you could judge the founder of a major world religion as unworthy of respect, how does this help you? Or us as Buddhists? Or as people? Is it skillful to ask this? Would that mean muslims on the whole are not worthy of respect? This is a fruitless and divisive question.
Agreed.

Disciple
Posts: 356
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Disciple » Fri Sep 15, 2017 6:01 pm

Lol I am very surprised this topic hasn't been locked or the op being permanently banned. That's what would of happened on the other wheel in a split second by Nazi mods.

It is nice that these type of topics can be openly talked about without any censorship and repercussions. Speaks to the open mindedness of this site.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 19458
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:16 pm

Greetings David,
davidbrainerd wrote:Islamic societies are just cesspools, literal rape cultures, not imaginary ones like college campuses.
That's quite a hefty claim. Are you able to provide anything to substantiate this? (A link or two would do...)

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

binocular
Posts: 5090
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:23 am

clw_uk wrote:As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
So what should this "not respecting such a man" look like?

Phena
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 am

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:44 am

binocular wrote:
clw_uk wrote:As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
So what should this "not respecting such a man" look like?
Some sort of fundamentalist position I assume.

Dinsdale
Posts: 5526
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:50 am

clw_uk wrote:From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.
It's sounds very tacky, but was that the cultural norm back then? At my local group recently somebody was criticising the Buddha for leaving his wife and child to go off "wandering". :shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: kverty, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 39 guests