Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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SarathW
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by SarathW » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:33 pm

Where I live it is legal to sell sexual services but illegal to buy. Retarded law if you ask me.
This is not a bad law.
If a person is selling sex that could be for their survival.
If we know a person in that position we can help him/her in other means except buying their service.
Perhaps we can donate some money or can help them to find a job.
Perhaps we can ask why do they sell and help to find a solution to their problem.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Disciple
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Disciple » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:56 pm

SarathW wrote:
Where I live it is legal to sell sexual services but illegal to buy. Retarded law if you ask me.
This is not a bad law.
If a person is selling sex that could be for their survival.
If we know a person in that position we can help him/her in other means except buying their service.
Perhaps we can donate some money or can help them to find a job.
Perhaps we can ask why do they sell and help to find a solution to their problem.
Sarath, social services are available everywhere here, particularly for women. Decent paying jobs are quite attainable too. I would say the vast majority of women who sell their bodies here do it out of personal preference, not out of necessity.

binocular
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:20 pm

Disciple wrote:Sarath, social services are available everywhere here, particularly for women. Decent paying jobs are quite attainable too.
Where do you live??

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zerotime
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by zerotime » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:06 pm

we should respect (despite no agreement) any person even criminals because people acts according conditions and kamma. So still more with the founders of the great religions.

Cannot understand the later insistence in this board with Islam despite there is an high interest in the world to use the Islam for all sort of things.

I believe there is a golden rule for lay Buddhists in these crazy times: when you see that all the world become very interested in some thing, avoid an excessive attention.

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clw_uk
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by clw_uk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:06 pm

zerotime wrote:we should respect (despite no agreement) any person even criminals because people acts according conditions and kamma. So still more with the founders of the great religions.

Cannot understand the later insistence in this board with Islam despite there is an high interest in the world to use the Islam for all sort of things.

I believe there is a golden rule for lay Buddhists in these crazy times: when you see that all the world become very interested in some thing, avoid an excessive attention.
"A feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements."
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/respect

We shouldn't respect everyone and everything. The Buddha didn't respect certain types of behaviour or people. Some people he said were foolish, unworthy of alms etc.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

davidbrainerd
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:55 pm

zerotime wrote:we should respect (despite no agreement) any person even criminals because people acts according conditions and kamma.

Youre using respect like respecting human rights by not mistreating someone. But Mohammeds been dead for centuries. So the respect in the question is not this type. (And even in this type of respect one is more respecting the ideal of human rights than the person.)

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BasementBuddhist
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by BasementBuddhist » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:43 pm

This is a fun question to consider if you take a moment to stop considering Muhammad as some barbaric Muslim "other" and just sit with it for a while.

Also, I hate to point this out but Respect is much like Self, variable, a matter of opinion, and entirely dependent on who is asking.

davidbrainerd
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by davidbrainerd » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:40 pm

BasementBuddhist wrote:This is a fun question to consider if you take a moment to stop considering Muhammad as some barbaric Muslim "other" and just sit with it for a while.

Also, I hate to point this out but Respect is much like Self, variable, a matter of opinion, and entirely dependent on who is asking.
You mean like reading the Koran? Go ahead. I've read it. And if you read it you find he was a barbaric murderer. But don't take my word for it read it for yourself. There's two types of people with respect to Islam: (1) those who say Islam is a religion of peace and Mohammed was a great spiritual teacher, and (2) those who've read the Koran.

Caodemarte
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:58 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:....You mean like reading the Koran? Go ahead. I've read it. And if you read it you find he was a barbaric murderer. But don't take my word for it read it for yourself. There's two types of people with respect to Islam: (1) those who say Islam is a religion of peace and Mohammed was a great spiritual teacher, and (2) those who've read the Koran.
A normal reader would not come to that conclusion as shown by the fact that millions, if not billions, of people have read, memorized, studied, recited the Koran and come to conclusion 1. Many of those are not Muslims as I am not.

binocular
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by binocular » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:04 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:You mean like reading the Koran? Go ahead. I've read it. And if you read it you find he was a barbaric murderer. But don't take my word for it read it for yourself. There's two types of people with respect to Islam: (1) those who say Islam is a religion of peace and Mohammed was a great spiritual teacher, and (2) those who've read the Koran.
David, you really need to learn the art of obfuscation in religious discourse!
:spy:

Yan kong
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Yan kong » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:17 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:55 pm
zerotime wrote:we should respect (despite no agreement) any person even criminals because people acts according conditions and kamma.

Youre using respect like respecting human rights by not mistreating someone. But Mohammeds been dead for centuries. So the respect in the question is not this type. (And even in this type of respect one is more respecting the ideal of human rights than the person.)
Respect or non respect doesn't enter into it as mentioned. As a sentient being we cultivate compassion for Mohammed and his follows regardless of their alleged crimes. I will add that this doesn't mean those crimes are condoned, and neither are many Muslims guilty of any crimes.

He is not worthy of veneration from a Buddhist perspective because he didn't hold right view. Which only means one would not follow his path.

Though I get the idea that you don't really care what a bunch of Buddhists think. You just want to argue your jaded view of Islam both past and present.

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Kusala
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Kusala » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:15 am

clw_uk wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:17 am
From my understanding, Muhammad married Aisha at age seven and consummated the marriage at age 9. This makes Muhammad a paedophile as he engaged in intercourse with her before puberty.

This indicates that Muhammad is not a man worthy of religious respect. Not only did he brake the 4th precept, but he did so in the most horrendous way. Muhammad was a degenerate because of this act, although he also engaged in other less than noble acts. True, he had some good qualities. All men and women do, even Hitler, but I feel what was noble in him can be found elsewhere. As Buddhists we should not respect such a man.
A very thought provoking video...

Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
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Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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L.N.
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by L.N. » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:42 am

"Connections to Other Paths" to me suggests something better than this.
Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... isha-truth
https://www.islamicity.org/forum/printe ... p?TID=7143
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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Mr Man
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Mr Man » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:40 am

Kusala wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:15 am

A very thought provoking video...

Hi Kusala
What thoughts did the video provoke in you?

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:07 pm

Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:59 pm
davidbrainerd wrote:....Its from their own books. The only thing they dispute is whether she was 6 or 9, because apparently their sources are contradictory on that point.

No, that is simply not true. What is the motive for this stream of unreasoning hatred?
Hello.

I'll quote the original texts. Note that the islamic canonical scriptures are the Quran, which is the highest authority; the hadiths, of which the Sahih Al Bukhari and the Sahih Muslim are the most reliable; and the Sira, the biographies of Muhammad. These hadiths quoted below are classified as sound, or reliable.

"Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."
Sahih al-Bukhari Book 58 Hadith 234.
https://muflihun.com/bukhari/58/234

"Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old."
Sahih al-Bukhari Book 58 Hadith 236
https://muflihun.com/bukhari/58/236

"Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death)."
Sahih al-Bukhari Book 62 Hadith 64
https://muflihun.com/bukhari/62/64

"'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (Peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him." Sahih Muslim Book 8 Hadith 3309
https://muflihun.com/muslim/8/3309

"'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (Peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old." Sahih Muslim Book 8 Hadith 3311
https://muflihun.com/muslim/8/3311


If this does not generate excessive controversy, I will quote other original sources that describe several actions of someone unworthy of spiritual worship.

Añjali,
MP
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Will
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:30 pm

L.N.
"Connections to Other Paths" to me suggests something better than this.
Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Correct, learning what to avoid is helpful.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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retrofuturist
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:25 pm

Greetings,
Will wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:30 pm
L.N.
"Connections to Other Paths" to me suggests something better than this.
Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Correct, learning what to avoid is helpful.
Agreed.

In this capacity, I think here about how one relates to their own experiences of being parented, once they themselves become parents. They will reflect upon their experiences and look at what worked well, and should be repeated, and they will look at what didn't work well, and endeavour to do something else.

Often the best lessons in life come in the form of what not to do. When finding what not to do, there should be no compulsion to find something positive in that which should be avoided.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Caodemarte » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:29 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:07 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:59 pm
davidbrainerd wrote:....Its from their own books. The only thing they dispute is whether she was 6 or 9, because apparently their sources are contradictory on that point.
No, that is simply not true. What is the motive for this stream of unreasoning hatred?
......
If this does not generate excessive controversy, I will quote other original sources that describe several actions of someone unworthy of spiritual worship.
If you know anything about the tradition you should know that Muhammad is not worshiped in Islam nor is he a Messiah This would be idolatry and the gravest sin in Islam.

This claim has been hashed over and rejected for much more than a thousand years.

According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) she is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed or proclaimed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, she had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. This contradicts with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah, who is the main source of the claim. Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage is held to be nine years only by Hisham ibn `urwah. Given the critical comments in the tradition on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, there is no compelling reasons why should accept his claims as more accurate that the widely accepted Islamic historians.

According to a number of narratives, she was present in the battle of Badr and Uhud. It is also reported in accepted hadith and accepted histories that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. She then would have had to be 15 or more to be present.

According to almost all the historians Asma, her elder sister, was ten years older. It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if she was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha would have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha, if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

There is much, much more that is widely known and easily found. Again, what is the purpose of this stream of distortion and bile? What connection to Theravada is being explored?

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:55 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:29 pm
Modus.Ponens wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:07 pm
Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:59 pm

No, that is simply not true. What is the motive for this stream of unreasoning hatred?
......
If this does not generate excessive controversy, I will quote other original sources that describe several actions of someone unworthy of spiritual worship.
If you know anything about the tradition you should know that Muhammad is not worshiped in Islam nor is he a Messiah This would be idolatry and the gravest sin in Islam.

This claim has been hashed over and rejected for much more than a thousand years.

According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) she is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed or proclaimed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, she had not only been born before the revelation of the referred surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) at that time. This contradicts with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah, who is the main source of the claim. Aisha’s age at the time of her marriage is held to be nine years only by Hisham ibn `urwah. Given the critical comments in the tradition on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, there is no compelling reasons why should accept his claims as more accurate that the widely accepted Islamic historians.

According to a number of narratives, she was present in the battle of Badr and Uhud. It is also reported in accepted hadith and accepted histories that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. She then would have had to be 15 or more to be present.

According to almost all the historians Asma, her elder sister, was ten years older. It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if she was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha would have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha, if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

There is much, much more that is widely known and easily found. Again, what is the purpose of this stream of distortion and bile? What connection to Theravada is being explored?
It is not distortion and bile if the canonical texts afirm straightforwardly that Aisha was 6 when she married, and 9 when she consumated the marriage. Can you quote the original and reliable texts, please? I've witnessed these mental gymnastics and contortions before in order to deny the canonical texts, but none were convincing. It is also not generally accepted islamic tradition, but a modern day inspired objection to what is clearly asserted in the canonical texts. I'll leave you with a quote in this post that sums up an exchange between Robert Spencer and modern day deniers of Aisha's age.

"Armstrong, and you, dismiss all the evidence that she was nine, primarily because you don’t want it to be so. Yet testimony that she was nine appears in Bukhari, which Muslims consider the leading hadith collection, as well as in Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu Dawud, An-Nasai, and Ibn Majah — that is, five of the six hadith collections that Muslims consider most reliable (Sahih Sittah).

Islamic theologians will tell you that Tabari does not take precedence over any of those, and in any case, Tabari also records she was nine, in several places — which multiplicity of testimony indicates a multiplicity of sources, which for Islamic theologians adds a presumption of reliability. The assertion that she was nine also appears in the sira of Ibn Ishaq, as well as in that of Ibn Kathir (...)

Stack up all that, and place against it that Tabari says in one place that Aisha was born in the time of Jahiliyyah. Let’s assume that by the time of Jahiliyyah Tabari meant the period before 610, and add in the other scattered passages that suggest — although none of them ever say directly — that she was older than nine. Even then you don’t have a case, since the testimony of the Sahih Sittah is so overwhelmingly in favor of her having been nine.

Then there is the evidence from the Islamic world, which you dismiss as a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, but which I maintain clearly stems from Muhammad’s status as uswa hasana. There is also evidence that mainstream Muslims today believe she was nine — contrary to your claim. I gave you one above, and now here is more. In al-Mubarakpuri’s biography of Muhammad, “The Sealed Nectar,” which won first prize in a Muslim World League competition for a biography of Muhammad in 1979 (ooh, 1979), it says this of Aisha: “She was six years old when he married her. However, he did not consummate the marriage with her till Shawwal seven months after Al-Hijra, and that was in Madinah. She was nine then” (p. 483)."

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/05/real ... erent-nine

If Aisha was an isolated case, I would be willing to be charitable to Muhammad. However, that is not the case as I will show in the next post. Not by distorting, but by quoting.
He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
(Jhana Sutta - Thanissaro Bhikkhu translation)

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Will
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Re: Muhammad - Worthy of respect?

Post by Will » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:10 am

Violence and anger are personal qualities that are more significant in valuing a person. This book, Jihad in the West by Paul Fregosi focuses mainly on the many wars or jihads waged by Muhammad and his followers. But there is some information about the violent temper of Muhammad, from chapter 4:
Muhammad was pitiless with those who fought him, stole from him, who
acted against his interests, or whose wealth he hankered to acquire. Kinana, the chief of a Jewish
settlement at Kheibar, automatically became Muhammad's foe when the Prophet learned that Kinana had
a fortune in gold vessels hidden away somewhere, and Muhammad ordered him to be tortured until he
revealed its hiding place. His executioners tied him down to the ground and lit a fire on his chest "till his
breath had almost departed." When Kinana finally died under torture, Muhammad ordered his head to be
cut off, and that night went to bed with the victim's widow, Safiya, aged 17, who later became one of his
eleven wives.

The Dictionary of Islam exposes various instances of the Prophet's harsher side. A striking instance of the
cruelty of Muhammad's character occurs in the Sahibu al-Bukhari (p. 1019 in the French translation, Les
traditions islamiques
), when he killed several tribesmen to whom he had given hospitality, who robbed him of
several camels, killed one of his men, and then fled. "The Prophet sent some people after them and they were
seized and brought back to Medina. Then the Prophet ordered their hands and feet to be cut off as a
punishment for theft, and their eyes to be pulled out. But the Prophet did not stop the bleeding and they died."
Another entry reads: "The Prophet ordered hot irons to be drawn across their eyes, and then [for them] to be
cast on the plain of Medina [where they were impaled] and when they asked for water it was not given to
them and they died." With masterly British understatement, his biographer William Muir noted that
"magnanimity and moderation were not among the Prophet's great qualities."
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

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