A summary of the philosophy & metaphysics of Yoga Vasistha by B.L. Atreya - the last 3 lectures in particular.
https://archive.org/details/Yogavasisth ... phy_201709
Value of interfaith studies
- Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Value of interfaith studies
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the Buddha himself was versed in other doctrines - which is of course undoubtedly true. I think it's also true that his own doctrine is nonsensical without the broader Vedic and Upanishadic context of his times (and this implies critique of those systems as much as adoption of certain features of them).
Beyond the Buddha, I think we need to consider the unfolding of Buddhism per se, as a distinct tradition in India. This was an overwhelmingly dialectical unfolding, as Buddhist thinkers explained and clarified their positions in relation to other Buddhist schools and non-Buddhist schools.
So, the value seems unmissable: it's how Buddhism becomes Buddhism. i.e. the very premise of an isolated Buddha-dharma is incoherent.
Beyond the Buddha, I think we need to consider the unfolding of Buddhism per se, as a distinct tradition in India. This was an overwhelmingly dialectical unfolding, as Buddhist thinkers explained and clarified their positions in relation to other Buddhist schools and non-Buddhist schools.
So, the value seems unmissable: it's how Buddhism becomes Buddhism. i.e. the very premise of an isolated Buddha-dharma is incoherent.
Re: Value of interfaith studies
I have no understanding of the vedic or upanishaic anything.....I guess then my understanding of buddhist doctrine must be garabage.....is that right?Upeksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:01 pm Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the Buddha himself was versed in other doctrines - which is of course undoubtedly true. I think it's also true that his own doctrine is nonsensical without the broader Vedic and Upanishadic context of his times (and this implies critique of those systems as much as adoption of certain features of them).
Beyond the Buddha, I think we need to consider the unfolding of Buddhism per se, as a distinct tradition in India. This was an overwhelmingly dialectical unfolding, as Buddhist thinkers explained and clarified their positions in relation to other Buddhist schools and non-Buddhist schools.
So, the value seems unmissable: it's how Buddhism becomes Buddhism. i.e. the very premise of an isolated Buddha-dharma is incoherent.
chownah
Re: Value of interfaith studies
That's not what I'm saying.chownah wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:36 amI have no understanding of the vedic or upanishaic anything.....I guess then my understanding of buddhist doctrine must be garabage.....is that right?Upeksha wrote: ↑Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:01 pm Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that the Buddha himself was versed in other doctrines - which is of course undoubtedly true. I think it's also true that his own doctrine is nonsensical without the broader Vedic and Upanishadic context of his times (and this implies critique of those systems as much as adoption of certain features of them).
Beyond the Buddha, I think we need to consider the unfolding of Buddhism per se, as a distinct tradition in India. This was an overwhelmingly dialectical unfolding, as Buddhist thinkers explained and clarified their positions in relation to other Buddhist schools and non-Buddhist schools.
So, the value seems unmissable: it's how Buddhism becomes Buddhism. i.e. the very premise of an isolated Buddha-dharma is incoherent.
chownah
I'm saying, the Buddha's doctrine is non-sensical without reference to the pre-Buddhistic (i.e. Vedic) context in which it arose. i.e. Concepts such as "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc were existent before the Buddha was born. So if you have an understanding of Buddhist doctrine, you automatically pick up this context.
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Hi UpekshaUpeksha wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:36 amI'm saying, the Buddha's doctrine is non-sensical without reference to the pre-Buddhistic (i.e. Vedic) context in which it arose. i.e. Concepts such as "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc were existent before the Buddha was born. So if you have an understanding of Buddhist doctrine, you automatically pick up this context.
The Pali suttas only mention the Four Vedas (and not the Upanishads). I think you would need to study the Vedas thoroughly to see if they had any systematic doctrines about "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc. Extensive discussion about these matters between the Buddha & Brahmans are not found in the Pali suttas. Generally, the Pali suttas depict the Brahmans as concerned with being the Superior Caste ("Chosen People") and going to heaven. Generally, its the Buddha who lectures the Brahmans about kamma & morality and declares a person is noble due to kamma rather than due to caste birth.
Kind regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Hello DooDoot,DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:05 amHi UpekshaUpeksha wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:36 amI'm saying, the Buddha's doctrine is non-sensical without reference to the pre-Buddhistic (i.e. Vedic) context in which it arose. i.e. Concepts such as "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc were existent before the Buddha was born. So if you have an understanding of Buddhist doctrine, you automatically pick up this context.
The Pali suttas only mention the Four Vedas (and not the Upanishads). I think you would need to study the Vedas thoroughly to see if they had any systematic doctrines about "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc. Extensive discussion about these matters between the Buddha & Brahmans are not found in the Pali suttas. Generally, the Pali suttas depict the Brahmans as concerned with being the Superior Caste ("Chosen People") and going to heaven. Generally, its the Buddha who lectures the Brahmans about kamma & morality and declares a person is noble due to kamma rather than due to caste birth.
Kind regards
Are you suggesting that there was no influence of Vedic ideas on the Buddha?
How then - just as one example - would you interpret the Buddha studying with Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, finding their respective meditative realisations lacking and thus moving on to an ascetic path, before rejecting that?
Are you proposing that these other systems - the very fact that it was possible to be a yogi of some kind, aspiring to liberation of some kind - had no bearing on the Buddha's life and subsequent teachings?
I find such a proposition so difficult to countenance. And I suppose the point is that the Pali suttas do not - cannot - occur in a historical vacuum. I am simply gesturing at this history.
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Based on the higher teachings, such as the Four Noble Truths (1st sermon), Three Characteristics (2nd Sermon) & Three Defilements Affecting Six Sense Spheres (3rd Sermon) and Nibbana, yes, I would say there is no influence, otherwise the Buddha could not be the Self-Enlightened-Buddha. In his 1st sermon, the Buddha said the Four Noble Truths were ideas he had never heard before.
However, as for the lower teachings for laypeople, these include Brahmanistic doctrines, such as: "this world & the other world".
The fact that Gotama rejected their doctrine & used the 4th jhana shows he was not positively influenced by them.How then - just as one example - would you interpret the Buddha studying with Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, finding their respective meditative realisations lacking and thus moving on to an ascetic path, before rejecting that?
Sure. But Gotama did not follow Brahmanism (later called Hinduism) but followed the Samana wandering tradition, which obviously did not have any systematic doctrines.Are you proposing that these other systems - the very fact that it was possible to be a yogi of some kind, aspiring to liberation of some kind - had no bearing on the Buddha's life and subsequent teachings?
Sure. Gotama has influences but his final realisation was original; according to Buddhist doctrine.I find such a proposition so difficult to countenance.
Kind regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
- Pseudobabble
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- Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
- Location: London
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Have a look at What the Buddha Thought by Richard Gombrich - he shows very well that the Buddha was taking account of Vedic and Upanisadic thought, particularly the BrhadAranyaka and Chandogya Upanisads, as well as standard Vedic Brahminism.DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:05 amHi UpekshaUpeksha wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:36 amI'm saying, the Buddha's doctrine is non-sensical without reference to the pre-Buddhistic (i.e. Vedic) context in which it arose. i.e. Concepts such as "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc were existent before the Buddha was born. So if you have an understanding of Buddhist doctrine, you automatically pick up this context.
The Pali suttas only mention the Four Vedas (and not the Upanishads). I think you would need to study the Vedas thoroughly to see if they had any systematic doctrines about "samsara" "karma" "moksha" etc. Extensive discussion about these matters between the Buddha & Brahmans are not found in the Pali suttas. Generally, the Pali suttas depict the Brahmans as concerned with being the Superior Caste ("Chosen People") and going to heaven. Generally, its the Buddha who lectures the Brahmans about kamma & morality and declares a person is noble due to kamma rather than due to caste birth.
Kind regards
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Thanks but whatever I have read from Gombrich shows he is very confused about Dependent Origination (and many other matters). RegardsPseudobabble wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:02 amHave a look at What the Buddha Thought by Richard Gombrich - he shows very well that the Buddha was taking account of Vedic and Upanisadic thought, particularly the BrhadAranyaka and Chandogya Upanisads, as well as standard Vedic Brahminism.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
- Pseudobabble
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Re: Value of interfaith studies
Assuming you are correct about DO, and other matters.DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:07 amThanks but whatever I have read from Gombrich shows he is very confused about Dependent Origination (and many other matters). RegardsPseudobabble wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 8:02 amHave a look at What the Buddha Thought by Richard Gombrich - he shows very well that the Buddha was taking account of Vedic and Upanisadic thought, particularly the BrhadAranyaka and Chandogya Upanisads, as well as standard Vedic Brahminism.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
Re: Value of interfaith studies
1. Rejecting a doctrine does not imply 'not being influenced but it.' In fact, it clearly implies the opposite.DooDoot wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:50 amBased on the higher teachings, such as the Four Noble Truths (1st sermon), Three Characteristics (2nd Sermon) & Three Defilements Affecting Six Sense Spheres (3rd Sermon) and Nibbana, yes, I would say there is no influence, otherwise the Buddha could not be the Self-Enlightened-Buddha. In his 1st sermon, the Buddha said the Four Noble Truths were ideas he had never heard before.
However, as for the lower teachings for laypeople, these include Brahmanistic doctrines, such as: "this world & the other world".
The fact that Gotama rejected their doctrine & used the 4th jhana shows he was not positively influenced by them.How then - just as one example - would you interpret the Buddha studying with Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, finding their respective meditative realisations lacking and thus moving on to an ascetic path, before rejecting that?
Sure. But Gotama did not follow Brahmanism (later called Hinduism) but followed the Samana wandering tradition, which obviously did not have any systematic doctrines.Are you proposing that these other systems - the very fact that it was possible to be a yogi of some kind, aspiring to liberation of some kind - had no bearing on the Buddha's life and subsequent teachings?
Sure. Gotama has influences but his final realisation was original; according to Buddhist doctrine.I find such a proposition so difficult to countenance.
Kind regards
2. I am not asserting that the Buddha taught Vedic or Upanishadic 'truths' or that he did not make an extraordinary and original contribution. I am merely saying 'the historical context in which he existed, was one which every historian recognises to be - broadly - Vedic in character.' Just as, for example, Socrates taught original truths which were - irrefutably - Greek in character.'
3. You freely admit that Gotama followed the Samana wandering tradition - it is bordering on the absurd to suggest that this was entirely independent from Vedic and Upanishadic context or influence.
Re: Value of interfaith studies
I personally have no doubts about DO.
As I said, the Buddha said in many suttas his core teachings were things he had never heard before. To suggest otherwise infers the Buddha was a liar. Also, if you can find equivalents in Vedic and Upanishadic context; please quote them. Please provide evidence. Thanks
Kind regards
This is the noble truth of suffering’: thus, bhikkhus, in regard to things unheard before, there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge, and light.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn56.11
Cessation, cessation!' — At this thought, monks, there arose in me, concerning things unheard of before, vision, knowledge, understanding, light."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
Whether or not there is the arising of Tathagatas, this property stands—this steadfastness of the Dhamma, this orderliness of the Dhamma: All phenomena are not-self.
“The Tathagata directly awakens to that, breaks through to that. Directly awakening & breaking through to that, he declares it, teaches it, describes it, sets it forth. He reveals it, explains it, & makes it plain: All phenomena are not-self.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.136
He understands: ‘It is impossible, it cannot happen that two Accomplished Ones, Fully Enlightened Ones, could arise contemporaneously in one world-system ― there is no such possibility.’ And he understands: ‘It is possible that one Accomplished One, a Fully Enlightened One, might arise in one world-system ― there is such a possibility.’
http://www.yellowrobe.com/component/con ... ments.html
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
- Pseudobabble
- Posts: 938
- Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
- Location: London
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Whether you have doubts is a separate matter from whether you are correct or not.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta
'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19
'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha
Re: Value of interfaith studies
Pseudobabble wrote: ↑Fri Feb 23, 2018 1:31 pmWhether you have doubts is a separate matter from whether you are correct or not.
- Nicholas Weeks
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- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:26 pm
- Location: USA West Coast
Re: Value of interfaith studies
This thread seems to be veering off-topic.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:20 pmYes, I agree. There are probably different pitfalls for different defilements, and at least those who look for similarities are motivated by the desire to build bridges, and their endeavours usually end in less conflict.Will wrote:True enough Sam, yet any bright intellect can 'desperately' analyze distinctions into differences and thus produce islands of views, schools and paths. Perhaps that is why Buddha praised non-attachment so much. A truly impartial motivation toward truth is possible.Sam Vara wrote:Good topic, Will. The Swami is right, but I have known a lot of people who are desperate to uncover some kind of universal spirituality or philosophia perennis, and then decontextualise and distort the meaning of different texts and traditions in order to make them fit. Our motives will condition what we find in our studies.
The last couple of chapters in the Suttanipata make that pretty clear.
I'll check out the Suttanipata reference later this evening - thanks!
Here are some of the Sutta-Nipata verses (ch. IV) I was thinking of. The key appears to be that thinking or cognizing conceptually will not take one beyond samsara. It often just tangles us up even more. Yet there is a way knowing directly, which interfaith studies discover in many non-Buddhist paths.
Excerpt From: Saddhatissa, H. The Sutta-Nipata5 The man who, having undertaken certain holy practices himself, attached to ideas, passes from superior to inferior states. But the wise man, having understood the Truth by the [supreme] means of knowledge does not pass from superior to inferior states.
(792)
6 He who has dissociated himself from whatever is seen, heard or cognized. How can one have doubts about such an insightful person who conducts himself openly?
(793)
7 They do not speculate, they do not esteem any views and say ‘This is the highest purity’. They release the knot of dogmatic clinging and do not long for anything in the world.
(794)
8 The brahmin who has transcended the limits of mundane existence; he has no grasping after knowing or seeing. He delights neither in passion nor in dispassion. For him there is nothing here to be grasped as the highest.
See also Paramaṭṭhakasutta
Good and evil have no fixed form. It's as easy to turn from doing bad to doing good as it is to flip over the hand from the back to the palm. It's simply up to us to do it. Master Hsuan Hua.