Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:28 pm

Related to the above.

Via Chinese Buddhism, we can read the last sentence of DDJ XXV from the perspective of a 'historical' Chinese Buddhist, to a certain extent. That is to say, we can map these ideas and concepts onto Chinese Buddhism through a syncretic lens due to a shared linguistic (and therefore also philosophical) expression:

人法地,地法天,天法道,道法自然。
Man's dharma is worldly, the world's dharma is heavenly, heaven's dharma is the dao, the dao's dharma is svabhāvata (or "is marked by own-being").


The 'manly' (in the sense of 'human') is identical to the worldly which is identical to the heavenly, identical to the dao: svabhāva.

"Wordly" may not have been read with the connotations of "worldling" though, necessarily.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:39 pm

Kim OHara wrote:(Replying to both posts)
I think the problematic shift is to characterise "something" as "a being" because that brings with it all sorts of notions about a personality, motivations, etc. which (the consensus seems to be) simply aren't there in the original. And it's very hard for any Westerners, with our monotheist heritage, to see "a being" in this context as anything much different from the creator-ruler-god, which is even further from the original.
What do you think of the notion that that "something" (物) was paṭiccasamuppāda, as understood as identical to emptiness?

That was how some Chinese Buddhists, like Ven Śr Zhìyǐ read this passage in the past.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Kim OHara
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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:57 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Kim OHara wrote:(Replying to both posts)
I think the problematic shift is to characterise "something" as "a being" because that brings with it all sorts of notions about a personality, motivations, etc. which (the consensus seems to be) simply aren't there in the original. And it's very hard for any Westerners, with our monotheist heritage, to see "a being" in this context as anything much different from the creator-ruler-god, which is even further from the original.
What do you think of the notion that that "something" (物) was paṭiccasamuppāda, as understood as identical to emptiness?

That was how some Chinese Buddhists, like Ven Śr Zhìyǐ read this passage in the past.
I don't think it's surprising or unreasonable but I don't think it's really correct.
As I understand it, Indian Buddhism was assimilated to Chinese (Taoist, Confucianist) culture by a process of finding the nearest equivalent concepts and (often) using the same words for them. Something similar happened in our own recent cultural history, when Christians discovered Buddhism in Asia and introduced it to European Christian audiences. Think for a moment about how misleading we now know those early interpretations were ...
The Scripture of the Saviour of the World,
Lord Buddha—Prince Siddārtha styled on earth—
In Earth and Heavens and Hells Incomparable,
All-honoured, Wisest, Best, most Pitiful; 01
The Teacher of Nirvāna and the Law.

Thus came he to be born again for men. 02
Below the highest sphere four Regents 03 sit
Who rule our world; and under them are zones
Nearer, but high, where saintliest spirits dead
Wait thrice ten thousand years, then live again; 04
And on Lord Buddha, waiting in that sky, 05
Came for our sakes the five sure signs of birth 06
So that the Devas 07 knew the signs, and said:
“Buddha will go again to help the World.”
“Yea!” spake He, “now I go to help the World.
This last of many times; for birth and death
End hence for me and those who learn my Law.
I will go down among the Sākyas,
Under the southward snows of Himalay,
Where pious people live and a just King.”
...
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... t-of-Asia/

:rolleye:
Kim

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Sep 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Another passage, DDJ II, with spooky overtones of similarity to how some Buddhist discourses are worded, at the very least:

天下皆知美之為美,斯惡已。
From the heavens descending all know beauty's as the beautiful, dividing the ugly thereafter.

皆知善之為善,斯不善已。
All know skill's as the skillful, dividing the unskillful thereafter.

故有無相生,難易相成,長短相較,
Because of this existence and nonexistence mutually arise, [because of this] difficulty and ease mutually [into each other] transform, [because of this] long and short mutually differentiate,

高下相傾,音聲相和,前後相隨。
[because of this] high and low mutually overflow [into each other], [because of this] music and noise mutually harmonize, [because of this] soon and later mutually follow,

是以聖人處無為之事,行不言之教;
Therefore the sagely man dwells with wú wèi toward things, he acts without speaking[,] this he teaches;

萬物作焉而不辭,生而不有。
With 10,000 things created here[,] as a result he [i.e. the sagely man] does not speculate, they [self-]generate without causality.

為而不恃,功成而弗居。
He acts but without claim [to his actions], the work he accomplishes but there is no dwelling.

夫唯弗居,是以不去。
He only has nondwelling, on account of this he has no departure.


For the sake of contextualization, and possibly self-effacement, here are some more 'professional' translators' take on the passage:

All in the world know the beauty of the beautiful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what ugliness is; they all know the skill of the skilful, and in doing this they have (the idea of) what the want of skill is. So it is that existence and non-existence give birth the one to (the idea of) the other; that difficulty and ease produce the one (the idea of) the other; that length and shortness fashion out the one the figure of the other; that (the ideas of) height and lowness arise from the contrast of the one with the other; that the musical notes and tones become harmonious through the relation of one with another; and that being before and behind give the idea of one following another. Therefore the sage manages affairs without doing anything, and conveys his instructions without the use of speech. All things spring up, and there is not one which declines to show itself; they grow, and there is no claim made for their ownership; they go through their processes, and there is no expectation (of a reward for the results). The work is accomplished, and there is no resting in it (as an achievement). The work is done, but how no one can see; 'tis this that makes the power not cease to be.
(James Legge)

When all the world recognizes beauty as beauty, this in itself is ugliness. When all the world recognizes good as good, this in itself is evil. Indeed, the hidden and the manifest give birth to each other. Difficult and easy complement each other. Long and short exhibit each other. High and low set measure to each other. Voice and sound harmonize each other. Back and front follow each other. Therefore, the sage manages his affairs without ado, and spreads his teaching without talking. He denies nothing to the teeming things. He rears them, but lays no claim to them. He does his work, but sets no store by it. He accomplishes his task, but does not dwell upon it. And yet it is just because he does not dwell on it that nobody can ever take it away from him.
(John C.H. Wu)

Everywhere it is obvious that if beauty makes a display of beauty, it is sheer ugliness. It is obvious that if goodness makes a display of goodness, it is sheer badness. For "to be and not to be are mutually conditioned. The difficult, the easy, are mutually definitioned. The long, the short, are mutually exhibitioned. Above, below, are mutually cognitioned. The sound, the voice, are mutually coalitioned. Before and after are mutually positioned." Therefore the holy man abides by non-assertion in his affairs and conveys by silence his instruction. When the ten thousand things arise, verily, he refuses them not. He quickens but owns not. He acts but claims not. Merit he accomplishes, but he does not dwell on it. "Since he does not dwell on it It will never leave him."
(D. T. Suzuki and Paul Carus)

When every one recognizes beauty to be only a masquerade, then it is simply ugliness. In the same way goodness, if it is not sincere, is not goodness. So existence and non-existence are incompatible. The difficult and easy are mutually opposites. Just as the long and the short, the high and the low, the loud and soft, the before and the behind, are all opposites and each reveals the other. Therefore the wise man is not conspicuous in his affairs or given to much talking. Though troubles arise he is not irritated. He produces but does not own; he acts but claims no merit; he builds but does not dwell therein; and because he does not dwell therein he never departs.
(Dwight Goddard and Henri Borel)
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Kim OHara
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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:08 am

The essence of that chapter, however it's translated, reminds me strongly of Zen - which doesn't surprise me at all, since Chan/Zen, of all the schools, is the one which sits closest to the meeting of Taoism and Indian Buddhism.

Comparing those different translations (thanks for posting them all, btw) makes me think that some translators didn't have a very firm grasp of what the original was saying. I'm sure that the original makes sense, however poetic or mystical that sense may be, and not all the translations manage even that much, let alone achieving any reasonable correspondence with each other.

In my next life I will learn Chinese just so that I can read the original. :smile:

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by form » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:06 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:08 am
The essence of that chapter, however it's translated, reminds me strongly of Zen - which doesn't surprise me at all, since Chan/Zen, of all the schools, is the one which sits closest to the meeting of Taoism and Indian Buddhism.

Comparing those different translations (thanks for posting them all, btw) makes me think that some translators didn't have a very firm grasp of what the original was saying. I'm sure that the original makes sense, however poetic or mystical that sense may be, and not all the translations manage even that much, let alone achieving any reasonable correspondence with each other.

In my next life I will learn Chinese just so that I can read the original. :smile:

:namaste:
Kim
U dun have to know Chinese to understand it. If you meditate enough, reading and comparing a few English versions can already give you good insight.

It is the way your mind assimilate the stuff and correct timing that decide if it rings a bell.

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by James Tan » Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:11 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 8:39 pm



Compare this with the rendering by James Legge, where a one-to-one correspondence can be drawn between clauses in the English and Chinese:
有物混成,先天地生。寂兮寥兮,獨立不改,周行而不殆,可以為天下母。
There was something undefined and complete, coming into existence before Heaven and Earth. How still it was and formless, standing alone, and undergoing no change, reaching everywhere and in no danger! It may be regarded as the Mother of all things.

吾不知其名,字之曰道,強為之名曰大。
I do not know its name, and I give it the designation of the Dao. Making an effort to give it a name I call it The Great.

大曰逝,逝曰遠,遠曰反。故道大,天大,地大,王亦大。域中有四大,而王居其一焉。
Great, it passes on. Passing on, it becomes remote. Having become remote, it returns. Therefore the Dao is great; Heaven is great; Earth is great; and the sage is also great. In the universe there are four that are great, and the sage is one of them.

人法地,地法天,天法道,道法自然。
Man takes his law from the Earth; the Earth takes its law from Heaven; Heaven takes its law from the Dao. The law of the Dao is its being what it is.

Hi coemgenu ,

IMO ,

周行而不殆,
reaching everywhere and in no danger!

It supposed to be translated as ,

It circulates unceaselessly .

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by mal4mac » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:46 am

Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:13 am
"wu wei" ... "non-doing" ... often associated with water and its yielding nature... it can assume any form or shape it inhabits.

The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control"... "action without action" or "effortless doing"... One cannot actively pursue wu wei. It manifests as a result of cultivation. The Tao is a guide.

There is another less commonly referenced sense of wu wei; "action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort". In this instance, wu means "without" and Wei means "effort".

The Tao Te Ching ... alludes to "diminishing doing" or "diminishing will" as the key aspect of the sage's success. Taoist philosophy recognizes that the Universe already works harmoniously according to its own ways; as a person exerts their will against or upon the world they disrupt the harmony that already exists...

There are deep similarities between Taoism and ... Zen.
This "non doing" seems superficially attractive, as few like working hard in their day job; laying back and doing nothing seems good. This is what made it central to hippy lifestyles in the sixties. "Don't stress man, go with the, flow let it all hang out, man". It's pure taoism! The problem with ii is that the "form of shape it [the tao] inhabits" may be a malign form - a drunken hippy, and a drug addled hippy, and there is no motivation to change because "whatever's happening man, is all good man don't stress it man, don't work hard to change it man, working hard is uncool, Tao says don't make any effort, getting off drugs is an effort, so just keep taking them, man." Think of Alan Watts, a drink addled alcoholic hippy who was deeply into Taoism, and a bit of Zen, but not real Buddhism.
- Mal

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:42 pm

mal4mac wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:46 am
Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:13 am
"wu wei" ... "non-doing" ... often associated with water and its yielding nature... it can assume any form or shape it inhabits.

The literal meaning of wu wei is "without action", "without effort", or "without control"... "action without action" or "effortless doing"... One cannot actively pursue wu wei. It manifests as a result of cultivation. The Tao is a guide.

There is another less commonly referenced sense of wu wei; "action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort". In this instance, wu means "without" and Wei means "effort".

The Tao Te Ching ... alludes to "diminishing doing" or "diminishing will" as the key aspect of the sage's success. Taoist philosophy recognizes that the Universe already works harmoniously according to its own ways; as a person exerts their will against or upon the world they disrupt the harmony that already exists...

There are deep similarities between Taoism and ... Zen.
This "non doing" seems superficially attractive, as few like working hard in their day job; laying back and doing nothing seems good. This is what made it central to hippy lifestyles in the sixties. "Don't stress man, go with the, flow let it all hang out, man". It's pure taoism! The problem with ii is that the "form of shape it [the tao] inhabits" may be a malign form - a drunken hippy, and a drug addled hippy, and there is no motivation to change because "whatever's happening man, is all good man don't stress it man, don't work hard to change it man, working hard is uncool, Tao says don't make any effort, getting off drugs is an effort, so just keep taking them, man." Think of Alan Watts, a drink addled alcoholic hippy who was deeply into Taoism, and a bit of Zen, but not real Buddhism.
You could apply the same critique you apply to the no-work hippy-dippy Daoist to the vinaya-observing monastic. Perhaps something is wrong with the critique? IMO, at least.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:55 am

The Stephen Mitchell translation is the one i have read the most (have worn out two copies and my current one has dog eared pages and is missing the back and front covers) but i recently started reading the Red Pine translation. Comparing them sheds more light on the spirit of the thing.

Red Pine:

1
The way that becomes a way is not the Immortal Way
th e name that becomes a name is not the Immortal Name
the maiden of Heaven and Earth has no name
the mother of all things has a name
thus in innocence we see the beginning
in passion we see the end
two different names for one and the same
the one we ca
ll dark the dark beyond dark the door to all beginnings

2
All the world knows beauty but if that becomes beautiful this becomes ugly
all the word knows good but if that becomes good this becomes bad
the coexistence of have and have not the coproduction of hard and easy the
correlation of long and short
the codependence of high and low the correspondence of note and noise the
coordination of first and last is endless
thus the sage performs effortless
deeds and teaches wordless lessons
he doesn't start all things he begins he doesn't presume on what he does he doesn't
claim what he achieves
and because he makes no claim he suffers no loss

3
Bestowing no honours keeps people from fighting
prizing no treasures keeps people from stealing
displaying no attractions keeps people from making trouble
thus the rule of the sage empties the mind but fills the stomach weakens the will but
strengthens the bones
by keeping the people from knowing or wanting and those who know from daring
to act
he thus governs them all

Stephen Mitchell:

1
The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.
2
When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad.

Being and non-being create each other.
Difficult and easy support each other.
Long and short define each other.
High and low depend on each other.
Before and after follow each other.

Therefore the Master
acts without doing anything
and teaches without saying anything.
Things arise and she lets them come;
things disappear and she lets them go.
She has but doesn't possess,
acts but doesn't expect.
When her work is done, she forgets it.
That is why it lasts forever.
3
If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal.

The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know.

Practice not-doing,
and everything will fall into place.



I dont have a printed copy of the Red Pine translation, but copied the above from a PDF, i suspect there are some punctuation errors in it.


A part of one of my favorite verses, from the Mitchell translation:

41
When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by mal4mac » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:49 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:42 pm
You could apply the same critique you apply to the no-work hippy-dippy Daoist to the vinaya-observing monastic.
Hardly ... alcohol is banned to the monastic, and following the path is hard work!

The taoist license to act with "wu wei", to act without "without effort" and "without control", seems a license to do just what you feel like in the moment. For an alcoholic that would be "have another one", repeat ad infinitum, which perhaps explains Alan Watts, and many hippies.

The other sense of wu wei; "action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort" seems a license to continue being an alcoholic, as getting off alcohol is a struggle for most.

No doubt there is some wisdom in Tao Te Ching ... "diminishing doing" and "diminishing will" would be useful in many contexts... but not in others, so it is a limited wisdom, hence we need the dhamma (or some other more comprehensive system...)
- Mal

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by chownah » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:27 pm

Any teaching can be wrongly grasped.
chownah

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:17 pm

mal4mac wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:49 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:42 pm
You could apply the same critique you apply to the no-work hippy-dippy Daoist to the vinaya-observing monastic.
Hardly ... alcohol is banned to the monastic, and following the path is hard work!

The taoist license to act with "wu wei", to act without "without effort" and "without control", seems a license to do just what you feel like in the moment. For an alcoholic that would be "have another one", repeat ad infinitum, which perhaps explains Alan Watts, and many hippies.

The other sense of wu wei; "action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort" seems a license to continue being an alcoholic, as getting off alcohol is a struggle for most.

No doubt there is some wisdom in Tao Te Ching ... "diminishing doing" and "diminishing will" would be useful in many contexts... but not in others, so it is a limited wisdom, hence we need the dhamma (or some other more comprehensive system...)
I am an alcoholic, sober since 91. I have read the ttc completely through at least 10 times. Quite often its in my pocket on the way to work or im reading it on public transportation, the PDF of the Red Pine translation is open on my desktop now.
The ttc is an important part of my spiritual program and you have completely mis interpreted an important taoist touchstone.

I suggest that after you have some more practice under your belt you give the ttc another look, it is a map of the relationship of humanity to mind (in the sense that huang po used the concept of heart-mind in the cleary translation of The Zen Teachings of Huang Po) and self to Self. (for various meanings of Self including but not limited to: emptiness, the deathless, rigpa, the One, etc, etc, ad infinitium.)



Oh and btw i am probably what you would call a hippie :) i dont use drugs or alcohol now, but took lots of LSD, smoked lots of pot and drank lots of alcohol in my youth and just to reiterate:

41
When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao.
~from the mitchell translation
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:03 pm

mal4mac wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:49 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:42 pm
You could apply the same critique you apply to the no-work hippy-dippy Daoist to the vinaya-observing monastic.
Hardly ... alcohol is banned to the monastic, and following the path is hard work!

The taoist license to act with "wu wei", to act without "without effort" and "without control", seems a license to do just what you feel like in the moment. For an alcoholic that would be "have another one", repeat ad infinitum, which perhaps explains Alan Watts, and many hippies.

The other sense of wu wei; "action that does not involve struggle or excessive effort" seems a license to continue being an alcoholic, as getting off alcohol is a struggle for most.

No doubt there is some wisdom in Tao Te Ching ... "diminishing doing" and "diminishing will" would be useful in many contexts... but not in others, so it is a limited wisdom, hence we need the dhamma (or some other more comprehensive system...)
Just to back up Morlock ...
Properly understood, "wu wei" is not permission - much less a commandment - to take the easy way. Rather, it is a directive, a precept if you like, to be mindful and to act in accordance with the Tao - which you can articulate as the Will of Heaven or the flow of natural forces or even the dharma, as you prefer. Acting in this way is easy and unobtrusive, un-obvious, almost not acting. (I was going to say 'natural' but it isn't quite that because the guiding insight is crucial.)
Doing what needs doing - and only what needs doing, and not what ego dictates - is another way of expressing it. I have just been re-reading (don't laugh!) the Wizard of Earthsea series. Like all of Le Guin's books, it is firmly underpinned by Taoism and this sense of acting as economically as possible to guide events and restore the balance of nature gets clearer and stronger as the series progresses.

:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:50 am

form wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:47 am

An expert is not an expert. A not expert is an expert. :mrgreen:
That's some Daoism right there folks.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Kim OHara
Posts: 4539
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by Kim OHara » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:14 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:50 am
form wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:47 am

An expert is not an expert. A not expert is an expert. :mrgreen:
That's some Daoism right there folks.
Nope. Pseudo-Zen.

:toilet:
Kim

form
Posts: 638
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Dao De Jing or Tao Te Ching - Book of the way

Post by form » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:00 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:14 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:50 am
form wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:47 am

An expert is not an expert. A not expert is an expert. :mrgreen:
That's some Daoism right there folks.
Nope. Pseudo-Zen.

:toilet:
Kim
A taoist keep it balanced.

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