Spot the alleged connection

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:57 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:This was not the passage, this was the, admittedly eccentric and vague, hint. We have profoundly fundamental disagreements on many levels. I don't mean this as aggression, I mean this as a statement of fact. Based on my observation of your previous posts, there is not a lot of point in us engaging in substantial conversation here. If you are moved, for some reason, to message me, perhaps we can say hello and begin a dialogue, but this is not the place. I don't think anything will come of us talking here. If you want to, you are free to post to your heart's content here or anywhere (as long as it is relevant to the OP and the TOS), but there wont be dialogue in the sense of mutual exchange, here at least. I think that is for the best of the forum, as we would need to discuss some very basic facts of Buddhadharma that are far beyond the purview of this thread.
Isn't this a Buddhist forum?
I thought there was "Universalists" forums elswhere.
This is "Connections to Other Paths". I would never say that "(heterodox) Christianity is the same as Buddhism", or even "X or Y 'Buddhism,'" but I would say that there are "some" (as in: "an indeterminated amount of") similarities.

"Wisdom is wisdom regardless of where it comes from."

"Even a broken clock is right twice daily."

Contrived platitudes, sure, but these statements, IMO, are true in their way, or rather, can be.

This is a connection to another path. There is no stipulation in the TOS that users of a forum must necessarily agree with a connection. If a thread becomes distracting and negatively impacts a great many users, moderators have a responsibility to step in and lock a bad thread, but I am of the opinion that people can disagree without ill-speech, without descent into lower realms of mental activity, I think people can disagree civilly. I have had numerous other threads in the past, where the consensus amongst users was that my "connection" was invalid, and it was not a point of contention.

You are quite free to think my "connection" is utter nonsense.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:05 pm, edited 5 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Garrib
Posts: 485
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Garrib » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:01 pm

Can't we all just get along?? :console:

And to be fair, this section of the forum is titled "Connections to Other Paths."

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Garrib wrote:Can't we all just get along?? :console:

And to be fair, this section of the forum is titled "Connections to Other Paths."
We can. At least, I think so.

Will we? I don't know. But we can.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

ToVincent
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:08 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Garrib wrote:Can't we all just get along?? :console:

And to be fair, this section of the forum is titled "Connections to Other Paths."
We can. At least, I think so.

Will we? I don't know. But we can.
Good for you if you are into kindness.
That you might find (but I doubt,) by joining, or having joined some esoteric "brotherhood".

But the gist of Buddhism is in the following (as far as "frienship" (aka brotherhood) is concerned):
“‘Having conquered the army of the pleasant and agreeable,
meditating alone, I discovered bliss,
the attainment of the goal, the peace of the heart.
Therefore I don’t form intimate ties with people,
nor does intimacy with anyone get a chance with me.’
AN 10.26
It's not in the domain of your "hope"; it seems.

So, what I say, is that you are trying to make a connection between gnosticism and Buddhism. And there is none.
But you can find that in the (Upaniṣadic) Advaita Vedanta, for instance. Which, in my humble opinion, is where "buddhism" has quite veered into.

There are not much "Connections to Other Paths" in Echt Buddhism. (Maybe Jainism).
That what makes it so unique.

Sorry to be such a drag.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:29 pm

ToVincent wrote:So, what I say, is that you are trying to make a connection between gnosticism and Buddhism.
Why would you think that? This strikes me as a non-sequitur. No one has brought up Gnosticism but you so far. The Gospel of Thomas is not Gnostic literature. I am making a connection between Buddhism and early heterodox Christianity, particularly, only one teaching contained therein, I am not comparing Buddhism and Gnosticism, be that particular Gnosticism Christian or some other sect.
ToVincent wrote:That you might find (but I doubt,) by joining, or having joined some esoteric "brotherhood".
Alas, I have not joined, nor am I part of, such a brotherhood.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

ToVincent
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:00 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
ToVincent wrote:So, what I say, is that you are trying to make a connection between gnosticism and Buddhism.
Why would you think that? This strikes me as a non-sequitur. No one has brought up Gnosticism but you so far. The Gospel of Thomas is not Gnostic literature. I am making a connection between Buddhism and early heterodox Christianity, particularly, only one teaching contained therein, I am not comparing Buddhism and Gnosticism, be that particular Gnosticism Christian or some other sect.
What are you Coëmgenu? One of the remnants of the "Enlightenment" of the 18th century, that think that they should philosophically "play stupid". (this is what Hegel had to say about it - just do a search on the term "stupid"). https://justpaste.it/x3ky

You know very well that the Gospel of Thomas is just Gnostic litterature.
Why do you play that game with me?

Also, I wanted to add in my previous post:

The problem (not for me though,) is that this "nice" kind of "universalism", does exclude 9/10 of the world; if not a lot more.
You see what I mean.
So I will pass on this kind of kindness, and will direct you towards the true meaning of Metta (SN 46.54 and the √ शुभ् śubh - as in "beautifying oneself" - viz. good (in moral sense) , righteous , virtuous , honest) - this is what Buddhist' s "Beauty" means.

In this world of few Brahmas, lots of maras, and humans - this is the proper metta to have, and a good thing to do too - trust me.
Lately, "people" are very virtuous for the others; but not for themselves.
The advice goes for any humans out there, as well.
Having realized by his own direct knowledge this world with its Devas, maras, and Brahmas, this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans, he makes it known to others.
So imaṃ lokaṃ sadevakaṃ samārakaṃ sabrahmakaṃ sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiṃ pajaṃ sadevamanussaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedeti.
Buddha (speaking of Himself)
SN 55.7
As Shopenhauer used to say: "the 'so called' humans".

Karuna, karuna.
Last edited by ToVincent on Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by m0rl0ck » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:03 am

In zen/chan if you see your true nature, recognize yourself, thats a good start. :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

ToVincent
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:06 am

m0rl0ck wrote:In zen/chan if you see your true nature, recognize yourself, thats a good start. :)
O, yeah! Zen/Chan has always be very profound.
As in no bottom :)
----------
Also, Churchill did say something like this once:
"one day people will face the truth; and most, if not all of them, will continue as if nothing had happened".

That is exactly what happened to him.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 16460
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:17 am

Please note that this section is called:
Connections to Other Paths
Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Clearly, other paths will differ from Theravāda, otherwise they would be Theravāda. The point of this section is to explore the similarities and differences, not to simply dismiss the other paths out of hand.

:heart:
Mike

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:20 am

ToVincent wrote:You know very well that the Gospel of Thomas is just Gnostic litterature.
Why do you play that game with me?
The Gospel of Thomas is absolutely in no way demonstrable to be Gnostic literature, I am sorry to say.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

User avatar
m0rl0ck
Posts: 1193
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by m0rl0ck » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:23 am

mikenz66 wrote:Please note that this section is called:
Connections to Other Paths
Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Clearly, other paths will differ from Theravāda, otherwise they would be Theravāda. The point of this section is to explore the similarities and differences, not to simply dismiss the other paths out of hand.

:heart:
Mike
OMG :) I accidentally posted in the right place :)
I'll go back to my corner now.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

chownah
Posts: 7550
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by chownah » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:20 am

Just as a heads up to the casual reader: The Gospel of Thomas is not in the bible....and there is some sentiment among scholars that the writings are heavily influenced by gnostic thought.
chownah

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:24 am

chownah wrote:Just as a heads up to the casual reader: The Gospel of Thomas is not in the bible....and there is some sentiment among scholars that the writings are heavily influenced by gnostic thought.
chownah
I am sorry to say, but I think I must repeat, for the sake of a heads up for casual readers unfamiliar with this literature, information from the OP.

It is early heterodox Christian literature, as specified in the OP. There is no Gnostic content, aside from a speculated later passage that some believe might have been added by Gnostics, but this is not proven on any solid grounds.

Either way, the quote in the OP is "Saying III". It is not the saying believed by some to have been added by Gnostic editors.

Chownah is right to a certain extent, in that some do think it is possible that the work was later doctored by some Gnostic sect or another (probably the Valentinians) ~1-200AD, but "heavily influenced" is a misrepresentation, although one likely unintentional.

The Gospel of Thomas is a very short text. Some speculate that Saying CXIV is a Gnostic accrual, as it specifically complies with some Gnostic orthodoxies.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 7 times in total.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

Phena
Posts: 470
Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 6:40 am

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Phena » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:49 am

Coëmgenu wrote:"Wisdom is wisdom regardless of where it comes from."
The highest wisdom in Buddhadhamma is that of not-self/emptiness. So wisdom maybe wisdom, but Christianity doesn't share this unique and liberating wisdom. (I would be happy to have it pointed out if there is some link to anatta that could be made).

The best we could probably say is (IMO) is that Christianity shares three of the four Brahmaviharas - kindness, care and joy. I'm not sure about equanimity though.

I think we can find these qualities as a base in all religions though.

Bakmoon
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Bakmoon » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Challenge: spot the "connection", real or imagined, to the Buddhadharma:
Πεχ̣ε Ιησοως χ̣ε ευϣδ χ̣οως νητ̣ν́ ν́ϭι νετσ̣ωκ αϩτ τηϣν́
Says Iēsows: If they habitually say it to you, those who lead the heart and mind of you:

χ̣ε Εισηητε ε̣τ̣μν́τ̣ερo ϩν τ̣πε ε ειε ν́ϩδλητ νδρ̣́ωoρπ ερωτ̣ν́ ν́τε τ̣πε [...]
"Behold! The abstract sovereignty dwells in the sky," then the birds will be made prior to you to be of that sky.

If they habitually say it to you: "It is in the sea," then the fish will be made prior to you to be of that sea.

But rather, the abstract sovereignty is of your inside and of your outside. When you habitually recognize [this abstract sovereignty as inside, outside, yourself,] then it shall recognize you and you shall understand that you are the "Sons of the Father Who Lives". If however you shall recognize yourself not, then you are in an abstract poverty and you are an abstract poverty.
(Gospel of Thomas III)

Hint: Consider, Σ̣μ̣́πετν́ϩ̣ϣν, Ṣeṃ́peteńhšn, "of your inside", and Σ̣μ̣́πετν́β̣δλ, Ṣeṃ́peteńṿdl, "of your outside". There is a Buddhist discourse similar to this, "sort of".
My turn. Is it the "The world is contained in this fathom long body" parallel?
Phena wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:"Wisdom is wisdom regardless of where it comes from."
The highest wisdom in Buddhadhamma is that of not-self/emptiness. So wisdom maybe wisdom, but Christianity doesn't share this unique and liberating wisdom. (I would be happy to have it pointed out if there is some link to anatta that could be made).

The best we could probably say is (IMO) is that Christianity shares three of the four Brahmaviharas - kindness, care and joy. I'm not sure about equanimity though.

I think we can find these qualities as a base in all religions though.
There are many other aspects of wisdom besides non-self and such. I don't think it should be that controversial to say that other religions can also have a good deal of insight into the human condition. Obviously an uncritical acceptance of everything they teach or blindly proclaiming all religions teach the same things is going too far, but I think a careful examination of the wisdom traditions of the world (especially of an ethical nature) can be fruitful.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 60 guests