Spot the alleged connection

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Challenge: spot the "connection", real or imagined, to the Buddhadharma:
Πεχ̣ε Ιησοως χ̣ε ευϣδ χ̣οως νητ̣ν́ ν́ϭι νετσ̣ωκ αϩτ τηϣν́
Says Iēsows: If they habitually say it to you, those who lead the heart and mind of you:

χ̣ε Εισηητε ε̣τ̣μν́τ̣ερo ϩν τ̣πε ε ειε ν́ϩδλητ νδρ̣́ωoρπ ερωτ̣ν́ ν́τε τ̣πε [...]
"Behold! The abstract sovereignty dwells in the sky," then the birds will be made prior to you to be of that sky.

If they habitually say it to you: "It is in the sea," then the fish will be made prior to you to be of that sea.

But rather, the abstract sovereignty is of your inside and of your outside. When you habitually recognize [this abstract sovereignty as inside, outside, yourself,] then it shall recognize you and you shall understand that you are the "Sons of the Father Who Lives". If however you shall recognize yourself not, then you are in an abstract poverty and you are an abstract poverty.
(Gospel of Thomas III)

Hint: Consider, Σ̣μ̣́πετν́ϩ̣ϣν, Ṣeṃ́peteńhšn, "of your inside", and Σ̣μ̣́πετν́β̣δλ, Ṣeṃ́peteńṿdl, "of your outside". There is a Buddhist discourse similar to this, "sort of".
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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aflatun
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by aflatun » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:06 pm

You're gonna get raked over the coals you nut :tongue:

:goodpost:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:10 pm

aflatun wrote:You're gonna get raked over the coals you nut :tongue:

:goodpost:
Hint (obvious hint. actually just the answer in Pāli as best I'm able): dhammānupassanā ajjhat­tika­bāhi­resu āyatanesu
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

ToVincent
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:11 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:...
This is not Buddhadhamma.
This is pure (Upaniṣadic style) Advaita Vedanta dharma.
The universal truth of the "world".

And that's your problem. And the problem of many people "pseudo-buddhists" on this forum.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:12 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:...
This is not Buddhadhamma.
This is pure (Upaniṣadic style) Advaita Vedanta dharma.
The universal truth of the "world".

And that's your problem. And the problem of many people "pseudo-buddhists" on this forum.
We have one vote for "alleged" and "imagined".
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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aflatun
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by aflatun » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:14 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
ToVincent wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:...
This is not Buddhadhamma.
This is pure (Upaniṣadic style) Advaita Vedanta dharma.
The universal truth of the "world".

And that's your problem. And the problem of many people "pseudo-buddhists" on this forum.
We have one vote for "alleged" and "imagined".
I told you :rofl:

:heart:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:15 pm

aflatun wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
ToVincent wrote: This is not Buddhadhamma.
This is pure (Upaniṣadic style) Advaita Vedanta dharma.
The universal truth of the "world".

And that's your problem. And the problem of many people "pseudo-buddhists" on this forum.
We have one vote for "alleged" and "imagined".
I told you :rofl:

:heart:
It's a free country. :meditate: :sage: :popcorn:
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

ToVincent
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:20 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Hint (obvious hint. actually just the answer in Pāli as best I'm able): dhammānupassanā ajjhat­tika­bāhi­resu āyatanesu
May I ask you where you found that "dhammānupassanā ajjhattikabāhiresu āyatanesu".
This remains a mystery to me. And I find mysteries pretty painful and useless. Maybe you can help on that one.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:22 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
aflatun wrote:You're gonna get raked over the coals you nut :tongue:

:goodpost:
Hint (obvious hint. actually just the answer in Pāli as best I'm able): dhammānupassanā ajjhat­tika­bāhi­resu āyatanesu
May I ask you where you found that "dhammānupassanā ajjhattikabāhiresu āyatanesu".
This remains a mystery to me. And I find mysteries pretty painful and useless. Maybe you can help on that one.
If I just give it to you, its not a hint. That's not how the thread is set up. I'll explain myself in a bit once I've given a few people a chance to try to see if they can guess the observation I am making.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

Garrib
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Garrib » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:46 pm

Taken from Access to Insight:

"Furthermore, the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media. And how does he remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media? There is the case where he discerns the eye, he discerns forms, he discerns the fetter that arises dependent on both. He discerns how there is the arising of an unarisen fetter. And he discerns how there is the abandoning of a fetter once it has arisen. And he discerns how there is no future arising of a fetter that has been abandoned. (The same formula is repeated for the remaining sense media: ear, nose, tongue, body, & intellect.)

"In this way he remains focused internally on the mental qualities in & of themselves, or focused externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves with reference to the sixfold internal & external sense media."


Is this where you saw the connection? Other than the words inside and outside/internal and external, I'm not sure I really see what you're getting at...Then again, I hardly have any reference for or understanding of the passage in the original post. If these passages are meant to convey the same thing, I must say I appreciate the Buddha's more direct style! :tongue:

Metta,

Brad

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:54 pm

Indeed. Well, you got close enough. You found where I searched for terminology.

The contemplation of the internal and external dharmāḥ in texts like SA 176. My eccentric interpretation rests on the oddness of this early heterodox Christian literature from Egypt, namely, the naming of God as an "abstract sovereignty", rather than a "sovereign". I view the advice to the practitioner in the OP purely as an excersize in contemplation, inner and outer, a sort of kāye kāyānupassī viharati with dharmāḥ in place of kāyāḥ, a 法法觀住, and from that perspective, I see a certain similarity of parts, although I would never say a similarity of whole.

________

It is quite reasonable to disagree with the tentative, meagre, and vague connection I have drawn. And that is a valid responce to this thread, of course. I am not by any means a "Theravāda" Buddhist, and so connections I drawn between "Buddhism" and X may not be shared by others here. Which is perfectly reasonable.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:04 pm

Also there's a lot of dots beneath letters.

Dots beneath letters = Buddhism. Everyone knows that :sage: .
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

ToVincent
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:44 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:If I just give it to you, its not a hint. That's not how the thread is set up. I'll explain myself in a bit once I've given a few people a chance to try to see if they can guess the observation I am making.
Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati chasu ajjhattikabāhiresu āyatanesu.
Moreover, monks, a monk dwells contemplating (the nature of) things in (various) things, in the six internal and external sense-spheres. (Transl: Anandajoti)

This is my translation from the use of the Sanskrit roots.
Moreover, monks, a monk fetches distinctively "what has been established by conjecturing" (dhamma), among what has been established by conjecturing; within the six internal and external fields (grounds) of experience.
No wonder your "pseudo-buddhists" friends don't want me to use them.

Who conjectured?
Certainly not "you" or "me", or "them".

Ignorance?
Probably!

Anyway, there is no appropriation, or even playing with (manipulate-control) the sthūla (gross), or even the sūkṣma (subtle,) in that.
√ हृ hṛ , as "appropriating", came as a later meaning; in texts that the Buddha did quite decline.

Now, you think (papañca,) whatever you want - If ever you are in possession of what you think.
It's your kamma.

Karuna, karuna.
Last edited by ToVincent on Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:46 pm

ToVincent wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:If I just give it to you, its not a hint. That's not how the thread is set up. I'll explain myself in a bit once I've given a few people a chance to try to see if they can guess the observation I am making.
Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati chasu ajjhattikabāhiresu āyatanesu.
Moreover, monks, a monk dwells contemplating (the nature of) things in (various) things, in the six internal and external sense-spheres. (Transl: Anandajoti)

This is my translation from the use of the Sanskrit roots.
Moreover, monks, a monk fetches distinctively "what has been established by conjecturing" (dhamma), among what has been established by conjecturing; within the six internal and external fields (grounds) of experience.
No wonder your "pseudo-buddhists" friends don't want me to use them.

Who conjectured?
Certainly not "you" or "me", or "them".

Ignorance?

Anyway, there is no appropriation or even playing with the sthūla (gross), or even the sūkṣma (subtle).
√ हृ hṛ , as "appropriating", came as a later meaning; in texts that the Buddha did quite decline.

Now, you think (papañca,) whatever you want - If ever you are in possession of what you think.
It's your kamma.

Karuna, karuna.
This was not the passage, this was the, admittedly eccentric and vague, hint. We have profoundly fundamental disagreements on many levels. I don't mean this as aggression, I mean this as a statement of fact. Based on my observation of your previous posts, there is not a lot of point in us engaging in substantial conversation here. If you are moved, for some reason, to message me, perhaps we can say hello and begin a dialogue, but this is not the place. I don't think anything will come of us talking here. If you want to, you are free to post to your heart's content here or anywhere (as long as it is relevant to the OP and the TOS), but there wont be dialogue in the sense of mutual exchange, here at least. I think that is for the best of the forum, as we would need to discuss some very basic facts of Buddhadharma that are far beyond the purview of this thread, in order for us to understand each other at all, let alone have a "true dialogue".
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

ToVincent
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Re: Spot the alleged connection

Post by ToVincent » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:This was not the passage, this was the, admittedly eccentric and vague, hint. We have profoundly fundamental disagreements on many levels. I don't mean this as aggression, I mean this as a statement of fact. Based on my observation of your previous posts, there is not a lot of point in us engaging in substantial conversation here. If you are moved, for some reason, to message me, perhaps we can say hello and begin a dialogue, but this is not the place. I don't think anything will come of us talking here. If you want to, you are free to post to your heart's content here or anywhere (as long as it is relevant to the OP and the TOS), but there wont be dialogue in the sense of mutual exchange, here at least. I think that is for the best of the forum, as we would need to discuss some very basic facts of Buddhadharma that are far beyond the purview of this thread.
Isn't this a Buddhist forum?
I thought there was "Universalists" forums elswhere.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... - In this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------

https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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