The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
I think a main reason why myokonin would never claim to be enlightened is because they would be too humble to do so.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
The Buddha of the Chinese tradition of Buddhist scriptures disagrees with the Venerable Heng-Ching Shih. His interpretation, I am sure, is cutting and brilliant, but projected Buddhavacana it is not.Santi253 wrote:The Significance Of 'Tathagatagarbha' --According to Heng-Ching Shih, the tathāgatagarbha/Buddha-nature does not represent a substantial self (ātman). Rather, it is a positive language expression of emptiness (śūnyatā), which emphasizes the potentiality to realize Buddhahood through Buddhist practices. The intention of the teaching of tathāgatagarbha/Buddha nature is soteriological rather than theoretical.[72]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature
A Positive Expression Of 'Sunyata'
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha191.htm
Either way it is tangential to the issue brought up in concerning selfhood and self-effort and tangential to the OP. So we don't need to argue about it. Suffice to say though, we have projected Mahāyāna Buddhavacana against Ven Heng-Ching Shih's words.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
Do you mean her interpretation?Coëmgenu wrote:The Buddha of the Chinese tradition of Buddhist scriptures disagrees with the Venerable Heng-Ching Shih. His interpretation, I am sure, is cutting and brilliant, but projected Buddhavacana it is not.Santi253 wrote:The Significance Of 'Tathagatagarbha' --According to Heng-Ching Shih, the tathāgatagarbha/Buddha-nature does not represent a substantial self (ātman). Rather, it is a positive language expression of emptiness (śūnyatā), which emphasizes the potentiality to realize Buddhahood through Buddhist practices. The intention of the teaching of tathāgatagarbha/Buddha nature is soteriological rather than theoretical.[72]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature
A Positive Expression Of 'Sunyata'
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha191.htm
Perhaps one can read the actual article, and then form their own conclusion.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
A delightful surprise!Santi253 wrote:her
That being said, I don't think we can just explain away the problematic elements in these sūtrāṇi.
Theravāda & Mahāyāna "non-self" are different conjectures.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
Ahh okay I thought that was what you were addressing I just wanted to make sure I was reading you correctlyCoëmgenu wrote:That tells me you haven't read it. "There is no self, therefore there is no self effort." Reminds me of Vacchagotta.Santi253 wrote:WTF? All Mahayana sects and schools accept the doctrine of anatta. They might disagree on their interpretation of Buddha-nature, but all sects and schools of Mahayana accept the Buddha's doctrine of non-self.Coëmgenu wrote:You are sounding oddly more like a Theravādin than a Mahāyāni above
For example, in the words of Dogen, "To study the Buddha Way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away."
To study the self is to realize the non-reality of the self, and to realize the non-reality of the self is to realize that our sense of separation between Buddhahood and ourselves is a delusion.
I don't think that you will appreciate me finding this for you (it took a LONG time), but its from Scroll 7, and I imagine this sūtra may shock you, but it is foundational to Mahāyāna Buddhism.
迦葉菩薩白佛言:「世尊!我從今日始得正見。世尊!自是之前,我等悉名邪見之人。
Mahākāśyapa Bodhisattva asked the Buddha to speak: "Bhagavān! I from today start in obtaining samyagdṛṣṭi. Bhagavān! Until now, we all entirely abided in mithyādṛṣṭi.
世尊!二十五有,有我不耶?」
Bhagavān! In the twenty five existences, is there ātman definitely?
佛言:「善男子!我者即是如來藏義。一切眾生悉有佛性,即是我義。
The Buddha said: "Kulaputra! Ātman, prompt and exact, is Tathāgatagarbha in meaning. All sentient beings all have a Buddha element, prompt and exact, Ātman is it's meaning.
如是我義,從本已來,常為無量煩惱所覆,是故眾生不能得見。
Thus so ātman's meaning is, from root to thus come, constantly under kleśāḥ without limit covered, therefore sentient beings cannot obtain sight of it.
___________
Where the Pāli Buddha is silent, the later Sanskrit and Chinese Mahāyāna Buddhas speak.The translation is above.CedarTree wrote:Coëmgenu, Can you detail how you are describing this Sutra, because I am curious to how you are seeing self and not/non-self.
My reaction is specifically to the, lets say interesting, idea that because there is no self, there is no self effort towards realization. This might be an "offical" Pure Land teaching of some sort, but Pure Land grandmasters have no more jurisdiction over me than the Bishop of Rome .
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
If you want to see more cool heretical stuff I've got an except of a Tiāntāi meditation manual that will blow your mind .CedarTree wrote:Ahh okay I thought that was what you were addressing I just wanted to make sure I was reading you correctly
Its got svabhāvāḥ in it .
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
I think you should develop your meditation. Being present for your life should not be boring.Santi253 wrote:To be honest, I find seated, silent meditation, especially for extended periods of time, to be boring. Rinzai seems more interesting. D. T. Suzuki had a Jodo Shinshu mother and a Rinzai father.CedarTree wrote:If you read the quote you posted of Dogen you may see how Dogen was Amida
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
haha sure pm meCoëmgenu wrote:If you want to see more cool heretical stuff I've got an except of a Tiāntāi meditation manual that will blow your mind .CedarTree wrote:Ahh okay I thought that was what you were addressing I just wanted to make sure I was reading you correctly
thanks heretical friend lol
Practice, Practice, Practice
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
I can't take anyone seriously when commenting on a paper they haven't read.Coëmgenu wrote:A delightful surprise!Santi253 wrote:her
That being said, I don't think we can just explain away the problematic elements in these sūtrāṇi.
Theravāda & Mahāyāna "non-self" are different conjectures.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
Koan practice and Buddha-name recitation are also forms of meditation.CedarTree wrote:I think you should develop your meditation. Being present for your life should not be boring.Santi253 wrote:To be honest, I find seated, silent meditation, especially for extended periods of time, to be boring. Rinzai seems more interesting. D. T. Suzuki had a Jodo Shinshu mother and a Rinzai father.CedarTree wrote:If you read the quote you posted of Dogen you may see how Dogen was Amida
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
If you are finding silent seated meditation boring you don't understand the framework of Koan practice.
and I agree with everything you have said, simply this comment by you caught me off guard and I think shows that you haven't developed a very important point in practice. If you are reciting Nembutsu/Nianfo you should not be making a comment like that unless you are very very new to this and haven't really begun to understand the path.
and I agree with everything you have said, simply this comment by you caught me off guard and I think shows that you haven't developed a very important point in practice. If you are reciting Nembutsu/Nianfo you should not be making a comment like that unless you are very very new to this and haven't really begun to understand the path.
Practice, Practice, Practice
-
- Posts: 1092
- Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
This is a lot like hearing someone say, "I am a devoted Christian who finds God boring." I guess it is possible.CedarTree wrote:If you are finding silent seated meditation boring you don't understand the framework of Koan practice.
and I agree with everything you have said, simply this comment by you caught me off guard and I think shows that you haven't developed a very important point in practice. If you are reciting Nembutsu/Nianfo you should not be making a comment like that unless you are very very new to this and haven't really begun to understand the path.
Koan practice and zazen are not different. If you ever practice in Rinzai or Soto you will find yourself doing quite a bit of silent, seated seated meditation as did D.T. Suzuki.
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
I've honestly tried zazen, and reciting the Nembutsu as a meditation device is much easier for keeping single-pointed concentration. I've also read Ch'an masters who recommended, for those who struggle with maintaining single-pointed concentration in their meditation, to focus on the Nembutsu as a meditation device.CedarTree wrote:If you are finding silent seated meditation boring you don't understand the framework of Koan practice.
and I agree with everything you have said, simply this comment by you caught me off guard and I think shows that you haven't developed a very important point in practice. If you are reciting Nembutsu/Nianfo you should not be making a comment like that unless you are very very new to this and haven't really begun to understand the path.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
Please consider the following…Caodemarte wrote: This is a lot like hearing someone say, "I am a devoted Christian who finds God boring." I guess it is possible.
Even in Korean Buddhism, where Son (Zen) meditation has pride of place, monastic vocations are rigidly divided between practice monks (ip’ansung) and administrative monks (sap’ansung). The ip’ansung include monks engaged in full-time meditation practice in the meditation halls, as well as monks engaged in intensive textual study in Buddhist monastic seminaries.
The sap’ansung include most everyone else, from the abbot (an administrative post in larger Korean monasteries distinct from the Son master, who is the spiritual head of the monastery), the prior, treasurer, and scribes (e.g., bookkeepers), to proctors, vergers of the various shrines around the monasteries, and bosses in the fields.
The sap’ansung are presumed to be too busy with their monastic duties to engage in formal meditation practice and are not even permitted to enter the meditation-hall compound, let alone sit with the full-time meditators. Thus, even in Korean Zen monasteries that are devoted to intensive meditation practice, only a minority of monks are actually engaged in meditation practice…
According to both historical evidence and modern-day testimony, Buddhist monks have followed many vocations, of which meditation is but one (and probably a less common one at that). And it was only in the 20th century that laypeople in Buddhist traditions from Burma to Japan became regular practitioners of meditation.
https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/biggest ... -buddhism/
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
Re: The Pure Land is the Pure Mind
That's fair, I think your terminology was just a bit off.Santi253 wrote:I've honestly tried zazen, and reciting the Nembutsu as a meditation device is much easier for keeping single-pointed concentration. I've also read Ch'an masters who recommended, for those who struggle with maintaining single-pointed concentration in their meditation, to focus on the Nembutsu as a meditation device.CedarTree wrote:If you are finding silent seated meditation boring you don't understand the framework of Koan practice.
and I agree with everything you have said, simply this comment by you caught me off guard and I think shows that you haven't developed a very important point in practice. If you are reciting Nembutsu/Nianfo you should not be making a comment like that unless you are very very new to this and haven't really begun to understand the path.
Zazen isn't about single-pointed concentration. In other forms of seated silent meditation single-pointed concentration is important and would be considered one of the very beginning things to be developed.
I can understand how you made the mistake in understanding.
Practice, Practice, Practice