Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by No_Mind »

This is an offshoot of my Killing Rats thread

My mother asked me a question yesterday (after I rejected the rat killing machine as something a Buddhist cannot use) and I need some sort of answer since I have none.

In the movie "The Last Samurai" (from which originates my user name) Lord Katsumoto, the last samurai, prays/meditates before Buddha but has no problem killing enemies.

How is this possible?

I understand that Zen is different from Theravada but do they not follow 5 precepts? -- is my mother's question.

Frankly I am little baffled too.

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
form
Posts: 3471
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:23 am

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by form »

At that time they follow their emperor. As far as I know the emperor was mystified as something very holy.

Also when life was hard as a soldier in war, all kinds of aversion thoughts prevailed. The written japanese zen we know of were mainly from d t Suzuki written after the war.
chownah
Posts: 9336
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by chownah »

No_Mind wrote:In the movie "The Last Samurai" (from which originates my user name) Lord Katsumoto, the last samurai, prays/meditates before Buddha but has no problem killing enemies.

How is this possible?
It is a movie.....anythlng is possible in a movie.
chownah
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by robertk »

Read Hagakure, written by Buddhist monk circa 1600.
It gives insights into the samurai culture.

My favorite piece is where he talks about how Japanese samurai are turning into girly men, and gives the example of it often taking 2 cuts to remove a head when executing criminals, whereas in his younger days(as a samurai) it was always one blow.

Wonder what he would think of men these days :mrgreen:
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by Sam Vara »

I believe different forms of Zen have different numbers of precepts. Some practitioners take 16 ("Bodhisattva Precepts") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisatt ... .C5.8D_Zen and this set includes a precept not to destroy living creatures. Others take 10,http://sfzc.org/about-zen-center/princi ... l-preceptsand again they preclude deliberate killing. Whatever precepts were taken by Samurai, it is clearly unlikely that a precept against taking life had the same force as it does for you and I.

The same issue with killing applies to Theravada, presumably. The Thai and Sri Lankan military kill when they have to. And the Nepalese Gurkhas I have known were superb soldiers while considering themselves devout Buddhists. You are right to see this as related to the rat-killing issue, as both scenarios raise questions about how absolutist it is possible or desirable to be in various situations.
User avatar
No_Mind
Posts: 2211
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 4:12 pm
Location: India

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by No_Mind »

Sam Vara wrote: The same issue with killing applies to Theravada, presumably. The Thai and Sri Lankan military kill when they have to. And the Nepalese Gurkhas I have known were superb soldiers while considering themselves devout Buddhists. You are right to see this as related to the rat-killing issue, as both scenarios raise questions about how absolutist it is possible or desirable to be in various situations.
I am here to listen and not be my usual argumentative self ..

But just for sake of accuracy Gorkhas/Gurkhas not devout Buddhists but follow a pot-pourri of Hinduism, Buddhism and animistic religions .. point I am trying to make being they are not as purely Buddhist as Thais or Ceylonese. The older residents of Nepal are more Hindu less Buddhist, and more recent ethnicities like Gurungs are more Buddhist than Hindu .. but in any case diluted Hinduism and Buddhism mixed with animism.

Non-violence is unique to Buddhism and Jainism and in case of any dilution I guess "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures" would be the first to go .. since it is the hardest to follow.

But it is quite possible the particular group of Gorkhas you met are the more Buddhist subset.

:namaste:
"The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy.”― Albert Camus
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17191
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by DNS »

No_Mind wrote: Non-violence is unique to Buddhism and Jainism and in case of any dilution I guess "Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures" would be the first to go .. since it is the hardest to follow.
The Jains are much more pacifist than Buddhists, eating vegetarian, mostly vegan, not even eating root vegetables on most days, and then sweeping the floor to make sure not to step on insects as they walk.

Some Buddhists like to think that they never kill or cause to kill, but the reality is that it is virtually impossible not to do so. The homes we live in all required the leveling of the ground, the pouring of a concrete foundation, the removal of trees, all of which kills millions of insects and perhaps some small rodents and other mammals. And then as Bhante Dhammika noted in the link you provided in the rat thread, there is pest control, head lice, fleas on our dogs or other pets and the fact that there has never been a Buddhist country in history that did not have a military.

And even if you're vegan there is still some collateral damage from the raising of crops from pesticides to the harvesting machines which kill millions of insects and sometimes some small animals.

But this is not to say killing is justified, just facing reality (that there is no such thing as a Buddhist who never kills or causes to kill) and we of course should try and limit it as much as we can.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by Sam Vara »

No_Mind wrote:
But it is quite possible the particular group of Gorkhas you met are the more Buddhist subset.

:namaste:
I believe they were, No_Mind. I worked with people whose fathers had been Gurkhas and had settled in the British Army towns of Aldershot and Farnborough. They were mainly of the Gurung clan or tribe, and claimed to be more purely Buddhist in religion than others. That might just be the characteristics of those that I happened to meet, of course, and you are right in that there did seem to be some elements of Hinduism in their cultural expression. There was a big campaign to re-settle retired Gurkha servicemen in the UK a few years ago, but some are now saying it has not been a happy experience for them. The young British Nepalese seemed to be as cognisant of their heritage as (say) young British Thais, but Buddhism seemed to be fighting a losing battle with the delights of secularisation and materialism. What was quite endearing was how proud they were that the Buddha was born in "their" country; something they said was also shared by their overtly Hindu compatriots.
binocular
Posts: 8292
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by binocular »

No_Mind wrote:In the movie "The Last Samurai" (from which originates my user name) Lord Katsumoto, the last samurai, prays/meditates before Buddha but has no problem killing enemies.

How is this possible?
-- Perhaps they operate out of a different model of religiosity than you do, and we cannot even conceive what that model would be.
-- Perhaps they focus on orthodoxy, not on orthopraxy, and they see no problem with that (many would call that mere lip service, but maybe it isn't).
-- Perhaps they have a non-egalitarian model of religion and religiosity where different aspects of the religion apply for different tiers of society. For example, both a peasant and a nobleman can nominally be of the same religion, but the nobleman has to follow different precepts than the peasant.
-- Perhaps they see something entirely different in the Buddha than you do.
-- Perhaps their model of progressing on the religious path is quite different than yours. Bear in mind that they do believe in karma and rebirth. Perhaps they believe that if it was their karma to be born in a samurai family/caste, then it's their duty to act accordingly, and not question that.
-- Perhaps they feel primarily obligated to their ancestors and don't perceive their caste nor their religion as something of their choice.*



*The film actually gives hints to that regard: The bushido scene in the garden with the blossoming apricot tree (cherry tree?) before they go back to the city where Katsumoto talks about coming to the place of his ancestors and remembering how like those blossoms, we all die, and what bushido. Then earlier, when Taka wants to kill herself because of the shame of having her husband's killer in her home, and wants to know why they brought him back alive, and Katsumoto says he can't figure out why they did. Then the conversations they have about destiny -- the concept of destiny partly includes the concept of karma. Notice Katsumotio's faith in destiny. It's just a film, of course, and a rather Westernized one at that, so the accuracy is questionable. Nevertheless, some food for thought.


(So much for "Too many mind -- no mind!")
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
User avatar
DocDhamma
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:09 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by DocDhamma »

No_Mind wrote:but do they not follow 5 precepts?
Monks, the taking of life — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades.

The slightest of all the results coming from the taking of life is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to a short life span.
Caodemarte
Posts: 1092
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by Caodemarte »

Samurai, feudal warriors or soldiers for hire, did not usually take precepts unless they took lay precepts. Some were lay Buddhists; some were not. As to why Japanese Buddhists engage in warefe, captial punishment, etc. it is with the same justifications that Thai, Sri Lankan, or other Buddhists use (or European Christains for that matter).
Last edited by Caodemarte on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Disciple
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:13 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by Disciple »

robertk wrote:Read Hagakure, written by Buddhist monk circa 1600.
It gives insights into the samurai culture.

My favorite piece is where he talks about how Japanese samurai are turning into girly men, and gives the example of it often taking 2 cuts to remove a head when executing criminals, whereas in his younger days(as a samurai) it was always one blow.

Wonder what he would think of men these days :mrgreen:
:rofl:
Caodemarte
Posts: 1092
Joined: Fri May 01, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by Caodemarte »

Hagakure was apparently not written by a monk.


Hagakure (Kyūjitai: 葉隱; Shinjitai: 葉隠; meaning Hidden by the Leaves or hidden leaves),or Hagakure Kikigaki (葉隠聞書?) is a practical and spiritual guide for a warrior, drawn from a collection of commentaries by the clerk Yamamoto Tsunetomo, former retainer to Nabeshima Mitsushige, the third ruler of what is now Saga Prefecture in Japan. Tsuramoto Tashiro compiled these commentaries from his conversations with Tsunetomo from 1709 to 1716; however, it was not published until many years afterwards. Hagakure is also known as The Book of the Samurai, Analects of Nabeshima or Hagakure Analects.
Wikipedia
User avatar
ryanM
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:13 pm

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by ryanM »

Hi No_Mind,

Recently, there has been news on "Buddhist" groups promoting violence against Muslims. When we take the Buddha's advice and compare their actions to the Dhamma and Vinaya, does it agree or disagree? They may be "Buddhists", but they certainly don't follow the Buddha's teaching. There are plenty of Jews and Christians who have killed and have without a doubt disobeyed the commandment against killing. To each their own if they want to identify with this teacher/teaching, but they're followers only in word when they act in that manner. The Buddha still had the compassion to teach Angulimala (who had the capacity to understand the Buddha's teaching), so it's not like you're forever abandoned in samsara regardless of any act you commit.

We can do all sorts of mental gymnastics to make our argument, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking it would be approved of by the Buddha. Plenty of decent scientists performed experiments on lab rats that have lead to their demise. Everyone has their own capacity to 'deal' with these violent acts. They may even perceive it in a utilitarian manner.

Whatever your decision, I hope you use it as fodder for wise reflection. This does seem to be a case that will truly test your mettle and convictions in the Buddha's Dhamma.

With care,

Ryan
sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāya

"nothing whatsoever should be clung to"
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Japanese Buddhism And Killing

Post by robertk »

Caodemarte wrote:Hagakure was apparently not written by a monk.


Hagakure (Kyūjitai: 葉隱; Shinjitai: 葉隠; meaning Hidden by the Leaves or hidden leaves),or Hagakure Kikigaki (葉隠聞書?) is a practical and spiritual guide for a warrior, drawn from a collection of commentaries by the clerk Yamamoto Tsunetomo, former retainer to Nabeshima Mitsushige, the third ruler of what is now Saga Prefecture in Japan. Tsuramoto Tashiro compiled these commentaries from his conversations with Tsunetomo from 1709 to 1716; however, it was not published until many years afterwards. Hagakure is also known as The Book of the Samurai, Analects of Nabeshima or Hagakure Analects.
Wikipedia
Have you read the book, or only a passage from Wikipedia. Or is there some new debate about this? I lived in Japan for many years and It was at that time well known that he was a monk.
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/hagakur ... ctInfoTabs
YAMAMOTO TSUNETOMO [1659-1719] was a samurai retainer of the Nabeshima Clan, Lords of Hizen province, who became a Buddhist monk in 1700 after the Shogunate government prohibited the practice of tsuifuku: suicide of a retainer on the death of his lord. The book was dictated to a younger samurai during the author's seclusion over a seven year period.
Post Reply