I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by mikenz66 »

The interview of Sandy Huntington by Ron Purser and David Forbes here: http://www.mindfulcranks.com/episode-3/ focusses on Huntington's article “The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace”.

The article relates Huntington's experience on a retreat where the teacher, when asked whether he was enlightened, replied:
“I have never been enlightened;
I am not enlightened;
and I never will be enlightened.”
As Huntinton observes, at the end of his critique of confusing Psychology with Buddhism:
To practice vipassanā meditation—whether through some form of
mindfulness or any other technique—is to cultivate, refine, and deepen
this basic understanding, to weave it into the fabric of one’s intellectual,
emotional, and volitional life until the whole project of being an “ordinary
person” (puthujjana)—which is all I ever can be—is finally revealed
for what it is from the Theravāda point of view. According to this ancient
Buddhist understanding or insight, I can achieve a great deal of success
and self-satisfaction in life, I can be very happy with myself and my
world, but I cannot be “enlightened.” I can even, if karmic conditions
are favorable, be reborn as a long-lived deity in The Realm of the Gods
Who Lord Over the Creations of Others; but I can never, ever become a
buddha.

Not so long ago, the summer 2012 issue of Buddhadharma—a
popular Buddhist magazine that bills itself as “the practitioner’s quarterly”—
ran a splashy cover article on Western psychology and Buddhism, titled
“Heal the Self, Free the Self.” To imagine that there is a self that can be
“fixed up” or healed is, no doubt, the proper business of psychotherapy. To
imagine, however, that there is a self that can be “set free” is—from the perspective
of vipassanā—the ultimate triumph of a narcissism that knows no
bounds.
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by Mkoll »

How apropos, given some of the recent threads we've had here.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by User156079 »

As i see it its unfortunate that the Teacher doesnt have higher aspirations, and made such seemingly pessimistic statements, but "Triumph of Narcissism", I dont know i think such criticism assumes some sort of ultimate understanding of non-self. I think being a good person and a heavenly rebirth is a valid goal, afaik Buddha praised it, not as highest but its worthy of respect. If a teacher teaches the Path i dont see anything wrong with him not being set in highest determination. Do you disagree?
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by Alexander____ »

Narcissism is a very strong word probably used as has become quite a fashionable diagnosis to make in the media and a touchstone that listeners can relate too.

Probably more appropriate to say self absorbed in most cases especially in this context.
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by chownah »

User156079 wrote:As i see it its unfortunate that the Teacher doesnt have higher aspirations, and made such seemingly pessimistic statements, but "Triumph of Narcissism", I dont know i think such criticism assumes some sort of ultimate understanding of non-self. I think being a good person and a heavenly rebirth is a valid goal, afaik Buddha praised it, not as highest but its worthy of respect. If a teacher teaches the Path i dont see anything wrong with him not being set in highest determination. Do you disagree?
I may be mistaken but I think the teacher is being set on the highest determination. I think the teacher is just saying that "I" will never be enlightened because one must give up the delusional sense of "I" for enlightenment to arise. In other words, when using the word "I" one is indulging in self view and this must be given up to be enlightened.....enlightenment happens when "I" disappears.
chownah
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by User156079 »

chownah wrote:
User156079 wrote:As i see it its unfortunate that the Teacher doesnt have higher aspirations, and made such seemingly pessimistic statements, but "Triumph of Narcissism", I dont know, i think such criticism assumes some sort of ultimate understanding of non-self. I think being a good person and a heavenly rebirth is a valid goal, afaik Buddha praised it, not as highest but its worthy of respect. If a teacher teaches the Path i dont see anything wrong with him not being set in highest determination. Do you disagree?
I may be mistaken but I think the teacher is being set on the highest determination. I think the teacher is just saying that "I" will never be enlightened because one must give up the delusional sense of "I" for enlightenment to arise. In other words, when using the word "I" one is indulging in self view and this must be given up to be enlightened.....enlightenment happens when "I" disappears.
chownah
I think he communicated it poorly if that was his message, because his statement to me seemingly postulates existence of a self that is not enlightened. You are probably right about it being the case tho
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by DNS »

I can think of about 4 possible reasons a teacher would say that:

1. It is a Zennish teaching on no-self, to get us beyond the "I" thinking all the time, the idea that "I must get enlightened."
2. To keep expectations low, to keep desires in check.
3. False humility
4. Doesn't know about the Unnabha paradox story by Ananda.

Numbers one and two are pretty self-explanatory.

Number 3 can be seen all the time on some forums and IRL. A practitioner will state how they have no attainments, don't expect any, how humble they are. And then later they will exclaim how an advanced practitioner is always humble and that you can tell an advanced, highly attained person by how humble they are. Spiritual materialism at one of its worst kinds.

Number 4 is the Unnabha paradox where Ananda explains that one can have desire/conceit that one can get enlightened and then once arrived at enlightenment, the desire/conceit is allayed. It is the desire/conceit to end all desire/conceit. It is a common misconception even among Buddhists that one must have no desire for enlightenment and having such desire will prevent it completely.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... mana_Sutta

More than likely the teacher is doing numbers one and two.
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by cappuccino »

Never say never…
Coaching
I specialize in Theravada Buddhism.
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by mikenz66 »

Hmm, Interesting that what I thought was the rather obvious and common Buddhist joke that "*I* will never be enlightened" (I suspect that was Christopher Titmus, I've heard he liked saying that sort of thing), has generated puzzlement. My quotes were merely intended as an teaser for the article and interview, not a summary. Clearly the teacher, the author of the article, and the interviewers, are advocates of awakening/enlightenment.

Did anyone find the article or the interview interesting?

To me, the point of the article and interview was that awakening involves seeing through the self. Parts of the Buddha (and other spiritual teachings) are now being widely used in a secular context as a psychological tool to make people's selves feel better.

Of course, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that - the Buddha taught people how to live better, happier lives, and how to be reborn into better circumstances. However, confusing making "I" feel better with awakening would be an error, and one that I think that it is easy for "real" Buddhist practitioners to also fall into fall into. A bit of mindfulness and relaxation is unlikely to lead to awakening if the practitioner does not receive any actual Dhamma instruction, and take it fully on board.

One of the issues that came up in the interview was whether teaching mindfulness in corporations and schools was a way of "sneaking in religion". The conclusion of the discussion was that since secular mindfulness is generally so divorced from Buddhist concepts, it isn't (religion). That might not only reassure followers other religions, but also disappoint Buddhists who think that the teaching of mindfulness might be some kind of Trojan horse that will magically short-circuit corporate greed, and so on...

:anjali:
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by aflatun »

David N. Snyder wrote:I can think of about 4 possible reasons a teacher would say that:

1. It is a Zennish teaching on no-self, to get us beyond the "I" thinking all the time, the idea that "I must get enlightened."
2. To keep expectations low, to keep desires in check.
3. False humility
4. Doesn't know about the Unnabha paradox story by Ananda.

Numbers one and two are pretty self-explanatory.

Number 3 can be seen all the time on some forums and IRL. A practitioner will state how they have no attainments, don't expect any, how humble they are. And then later they will exclaim how an advanced practitioner is always humble and that you can tell an advanced, highly attained person by how humble they are. Spiritual materialism at one of its worst kinds.

Number 4 is the Unnabha paradox where Ananda explains that one can have desire/conceit that one can get enlightened and then once arrived at enlightenment, the desire/conceit is allayed. It is the desire/conceit to end all desire/conceit. It is a common misconception even among Buddhists that one must have no desire for enlightenment and having such desire will prevent it completely.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... mana_Sutta

More than likely the teacher is doing numbers one and two.
I didn't read the article yet (sorry Mike!) but I have always found number 4 fascinating and incredibly important, especially for those of us who try to get ahead of themselves (ahem, like me) and think desire, conceit, etc can be dropped all at once as step one.
This body comes into being through craving. And yet it is by relying on craving that craving is to be abandoned.

This body comes into being through conceit. And yet it is by relying on conceit that conceit is to be abandoned.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by Caodemarte »

The original article makes clear that this was a typical Buddhist response encouraging detachment or freedom from detachment.

"I" would agree that the teacher was also pointing out that there is no "I" to grab enlightenment as a golden ring. So attaching to the idea of enlightenment, trying to add it to "my" collection of objects or achievements is not only a delusion that prevents enlightenment as "you" get in "your" way, but is fundamentally silly as a non-existent "I" cannot "achieve" anything.
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by mikenz66 »

aflatun wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: Number 4 is the Unnabha paradox where Ananda explains that one can have desire/conceit that one can get enlightened and then once arrived at enlightenment, the desire/conceit is allayed. It is the desire/conceit to end all desire/conceit. It is a common misconception even among Buddhists that one must have no desire for enlightenment and having such desire will prevent it completely.
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... mana_Sutta
.
I didn't read the article yet (sorry Mike!) but I have always found number 4 fascinating and incredibly important, especially for those of us who try to get ahead of themselves (ahem, like me) and think desire, conceit, etc can be dropped all at once as step one.
Sure, getting ahead of yourself is one pitfall However, the key point that I took from the article and interview was that psychologized secular meditation approaches are based on assumptions that will never lead to awakening, since key Dhamma concepts are never taught, including "basic" ones around morality and compassion.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by mikenz66 »

Caodemarte wrote:The original article makes clear that this was a typical Buddhist response encouraging detachment or freedom from detachment.

"I" would agree that the teacher was also pointing out that there is no "I" to grab enlightenment as a golden ring. So attaching to the idea of enlightenment, trying to add it to "my" collection of objects or achievements is not only a delusion that prevents enlightenment as "you" get in "your" way, but is fundamentally silly as a non-existent "I" cannot "achieve" anything.
Caodemarte has indeed understood!

:clap:
Mike
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by bazzaman »

Just a tangent:... I listened to about half of the podcast; but it didn't stimulate anything in my current areas of interest. I did however like the next podcast: The Mindful Cranks episode 4 entitled "The Happiness Industry" with Will Davies. http://bit.ly/2jXrxRO
Atāṇo loko anabhissaro...

Yena yena hi maññanti tato taṃ hoti aññathā,
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Re: I never will be enlightened - The Triumph of Narcissism: Theravada Buddhist Meditation in the Marketplace

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, there's some good stuff on that podcast.

:anjali:
Mike
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