Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
form
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
That's an interesting point. Can you (or anyone else) remember which sutta?
In AN, let me go and find it for u.

There are some religions that teaches love and kindness but the founder insist that they are the new cosmic buddha, that I disapprove.

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:25 pm

Will wrote:
form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
I would prefer to see the actual translated quotation. I will guess that 'dhamma' is used, meaning a specific teaching or practice - not an entire religion.

If, on the other hand, an entire religion is meant, it would be saying that criticism is forbidden, period. Every person has some good thoughts or words or deeds, so criticism of that person would also be forbidden.

In anticipation - criticism is not judgement.

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:27 pm

form wrote:
Will wrote:
form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
I would prefer to see the actual translated quotation. I will guess that 'dhamma' is used, meaning a specific teaching or practice - not an entire religion.

If, on the other hand, an entire religion is meant, it would be saying that criticism is forbidden, period. Every person has some good thoughts or words or deeds, so criticism of that person would also be forbidden.

In anticipation - criticism is not judgement.
The word used is probably dhamma as I dun remember seeing the word religion appear in the suttas.

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Aloka
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Aloka » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:31 am

Some interesting comments about Mara from Bhikhu Buddhadasa in "TWO KINDS OF LANGUAGE: Everyday Language & Dhamma language"
MARA
Now we turn to a rather strange word, the word "Mara" (the tempter, the devil). The Mara of everyday language is conceived as a kind of monster with body, face, and eyes of repulsive and terrifying appearance. Mara in Dhamma language, however, is not a living creature but rather any kind of mental state opposed to the good and wholesome and to progress towards the cessation of dukkha. That which opposes and obstructs spiritual progress is called Mara. We may think of Mara as a living being if we wish, as long as we understand what he really stands for.

No doubt you have often heard the story of how Mara came down from the Paranimmitavasavatti realm to confront the Buddha-to-be. This was the real Mara the Tempter. He came down from the highest heaven, the Paranimmitavasavatti realm, which is a heaven of sensual enjoyments of the highest order, a paradise abounding in everything the heart could desire, where someone is always standing by to gratify one's every wish. This is Mara the Tempter, but not the one with the ugly, ferocious countenance and reddened mouth, who is supposed to go around catching creatures to suck their blood. That is Mara as ignorant people picture him. It is the Mara of the everyday language of ignorant people who don't know how to recognize Mara when they see him.

In Dhamma language, the word "Mara" means at worst the heaven known as Paranimmitavasavatti, the highest realm of sensuality. In general it means any mental state opposed to the good and wholesome, opposed to spiritual progress. This is Mara in Dhamma language.

http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltruth/ ... uage2.html
I think its also worth looking at SN 22.63:

[At Saavatthii a certain (unnamed) monk came to the Blessed One and said:] "It would be well for me, Lord, if the Blessed One would teach me briefly a doctrine so that having heard it I might dwell alone, in seclusion, unwearied, ardent and resolute."

"Monk, if you cling to anything, you are in bondage to Mara.[1] If you do not cling, you are free of the Evil One."

"I have understood, Blessed One, I have understood, Well-farer!"

"But how, monk, do you understand in full what I have stated in brief?"

"Lord, if one clings to the body, one is in bondage to Mara. If one does not cling to the body, one is free of the Evil One. [Similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness.'] That, Lord, is how I understand in full the sense of what the Blessed One has stated in brief."

"Good, good, monk! You have well understood in full the sense of what I stated in brief. If you cling to the body,... feelings,... perceptions,... mental formations,... consciousness, you are in bondage to Mara. If you do not cling, you are free of the Evil One. That is how the sense of what I have stated in brief is to be understood in full."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
So therefore clinging to the notion that "monotheistic religions are the production of Mara" could be a form of "bondage to Mara" in itself.

:anjali:

form
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:30 pm

As far as I remember, only people go look for the Buddha to debate. He has never looked for people to debate. He said he has no problem with the world, it is the world that has problem with him.

I often wonder why he has never debate with the Jain leader that co exist in his time. And the Jain leader only send his disciples to debate with the buddha, why not himself to do the debate? And is he a naked ascetic?

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:51 am

form wrote:I often wonder why he has never debate with the Jain leader that co exist in his time. And the Jain leader only send his disciples to debate with the buddha, why not himself to do the debate?
The Buddha isn't reported to have met any of the six prominent samaṇa teachers of his day, but it's only in the case of Sañjaya Belaṭṭhaputta that any reason is given for the failure to meet. As the Dhammapada Atthakathā has it:

  • Now it was a distinguishing trait of the Elder Sāriputta that he always held a teacher in profound respect. Therefore said he to his friend, “Friend, let us inform our teacher, the wandering ascetic Sañjaya, that we have attained the Deathless. Thus will his mind be awakened, and he will comprehend. But should he fail to comprehend, he will at any rate believe what we say to be true; and so soon as he has listened to the preaching of the Buddhas, he will attain the Path and the Fruit.”
    Accordingly the two wandering ascetics went to Sañjaya. When Sañjaya saw them, he asked, “Friends, did you succeed in finding anyone able to show you the Way to the Deathless?”
    “Yes, teacher, such a one have we found. The Buddha has appeared in the world, the Law has appeared, the Order has appeared. You, sir, are walking in vain unreality. Come, sir, let us go to the Teacher.”
    “You may go; I cannot go.”
    “For what reason?”
    “In the past I have gone about as a teacher of the multitude. For me to become a pupil again would be as absurd as for a chatty to go to the well. I shall not be able to live the life of a pupil.”
    “Do not act thus, teacher.”
    “Never mind, friends, you may go, but I cannot go.”
    “Teacher, from the moment of the Buddha’s appearance in the world the populace will take perfumes, garlands, and so forth in their hands and will go and do honor to him alone. Let us also go there. What do you intend to do?”
    “Friends, which are more numerous in this world, the stupid or the wise?”
    “Teacher, the stupid are many, the wise are few.”
    “Well then, friends, let the wise men go to the wise monk Gotama, and let the stupid come to stupid me. You may go, but I shall not go.”
    “You will become a famous man, teacher!” said his two former pupils, and departed.
    (tr. Burlingame, Buddhist Legends)

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by mario92 » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Thank you whynotme :anjali:
Good morning, have a nice day

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by whynotme » Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:29 pm

Will wrote:Mara is real, both as our diabolic thoughts, words and deeds and also as external demonic forces.

However I do not think Zoroaster, Rama, Krishna, Moses, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Jesus and other major founders were Mara's followers. (Not sure about Mohamet.)

But over time many individual followers, like most human beings, were and are often dancing to Mara's frenzied masquerade.

So imperfection is all about us and within us as the first two Noble truths say. Yet, the way out and beyond, is in the latter two - so practice more seriously.
So at least you are not sure about Mohammet, why do you sure about Jesus? Did you read the bible? If your thought on Jesus based on people around you, then they may fool you.

The teaching of the Bible is very terrible.

Most people here will not understand what I said, because they just don't know, they are just normal people. My post also answered an extremely important question of Western philosophy, the mind - body problem, which is way higher than the level of many people here. This is the first answer in history that can solve that problem.

Most of people don't know from real life experience, don't know Mara followers. They teach things that are extreme good, and I think most normal people will fall easy for the trap, even high rank political leaders. That is the reality, and most people will never know. My post is not for normal people, but to warn "special people" of supernatural phenomena.

Most people don't know how an arahant is, and grasp to the Nikaya. Even if the arahant appears in front of them, they will not accept it. That is the kamma of the world.
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by whynotme » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:13 pm

freedom wrote:
whynotme wrote: ...
For people come from Christian or other monotheistic traditions, this may be an insult, but this is just a view from Buddhism.
...
English is not my language, but I will try my best to express my view...

I hope that you would say that is your own view (Not the view from Buddhism). I have practiced Buddhism but I have no problem with any other religions. I instead have very high respect to some of their doctrines's point of views even though I do not follow them.

Diversity is what nature is. There is no fixed solution for all. There are many different diseases which require different treatments.

People are not always looking into one direction. Their goals are varied, so their paths are different. If they can reach their goals then they are in the right path. Otherwise, they are in the wrong one no matter how good the path is.

Dualism is what the world is about. People have external and internal characters. They are not always the same. Sacred doctrines also have external and internal senses. Many times, we only see the external but not the internal which is the real substance of the person or a doctrine.

Sacred doctrines have internal senses that are not easy for normal people to understand because it is not yet benefit for them. Just like we do not expose sexual materials to a two year old child because it is not appropriate for that child. When he/she grows up, he/she will find out for himself/herself.

By not understanding the internal senses of a sacred doctrine, people give different interpretations trying to expose the hidden internal senses of the scripture to the world. Therefore, they created many different sects and misunderstanding. However, if we really understand the internal sense of a sacred scripture, we will prefer to keep it as it is. All we can do is to give some hints to whoever could understand and benefit from them.

The internal sense sometimes is completely opposite to the external one. The external is about material/exposed aspect while the internal is about the spiritual/hidden one.

Majority of people are chasing the external world, they do not see the internal one.

By not understanding the internal senses of a sacred doctrine, people trashed the doctrine without realizing that they are creating horrible troubles for themselves (e.g. wrong speech, blasphemy...)

Just like what Lao-tzu in Tao te Ching's Chapter 41 (Translated by J. Legge) has said:

"Scholars of the highest class, when they hear about the Tao,earnestly carry it into practice.
Scholars of the middle class, when they have heard about it, seem now to keep it and now to lose it.
Scholars of the lowest class, when they have heard about it, laugh greatly at it. If it were not (thus) laughed at, it would not be fit to be the Tao."

Not all sacred doctrine is the same. Each doctrine will lead to a different (or sometimes the same) destination. Some doctrines will lead people to heavenly pleasures, other may lead to freedom...

Looking at history of a religion does not always show what its doctrine is about. It only shows how people understand and apply their understandings to the world or to their practices.

People are drawn to a particular religion/sect because of their own kamma. Once the kamma exhausted, they may switch to a different one until they could find their own escapes.

Even though I have practiced Buddhism, I do not consider myself a Buddhist or not a Buddhist or anything else, therefore, my view is also not a representation of Buddhism. I do not seek for any debate so if you do not agree with what I have said, just consider this is just my own view (just like you have your own.) I am not support or against your view; therefore, I do not say that your view is right or wrong. It's up to you to decide that.

Edit: Fixed some grammar errors!
Your post is good, I understand what you meant.

You understand that the world is complex, so do I.

The problem is, the world is complex, so why shouldn't we make it simpler? For example, if you say the world is complex, and let it be, so why can't I say, let make it simpler?

In the end, it is hard to know which one is right, everyone grasp to his opinion. And so there are fights, and there are wars. It is just people like you and me, but with good kamma, and they can start war for nonsense things. If you or I have good kamma, then we can start war for our own nonsense things. That is the world, that is nature.

What is nature? Nature is cause and effect. Hitler killed Jews, that is natural, the moon goes around the earth, that is natural. Everything is natural. Our thoughts, our needs, our desires are all natural things that obey the law of cause and effect. Dictators are natural, war is natural, peace is natural. Talking is natural, disagreement is natural, robbing is natural, killing is natural, forcing people is natural, converting people from other religions is natural. Everything is nature.

We can not evade nature, whatever you or I or anyone do, it is natural. Even you kill the whole world, that is natural. If you kill the whole Christian, that is natural, if you erase the Buddhism from the Earth, that is natural. The law of nature, is the law of cause and effect. Hitler could kill the Jews easily, can you do it? Probably not. We are all victims of the law of nature.

The problem is that, to win argument (war), the most important thing is, who is more enthusiastic or more talented, not who is right. Hitler is a madman, but the law of nature put him into the top of the world. Another problem is that, according to kamma, the one who is enthusiastic to Buddhism has better kamma.

People can doubt this, but I am not. People doubt it because normally, Buddhist countries are not good, but in my view, there isn't any good Buddhist country as an example. Even people in those countries, they don't understand the Buddhism. Very few people really understand Buddhism. So in the end, may wars solve our difference, and may the kamma points out who is the winner.

PS: you don't know dualism, dualism is a philosophical view. I know very well people's thoughts, needs, and desires.
PS2: Yes, you can say that is my own view, not Buddhism, I really don't care that much, because in my view, most of Buddhism is corrupted.
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by whynotme » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:25 pm

form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
Demerit my ass, you can fool anyone, but not me.

Criticize Christianity is a good merit. For the enjoyment of several hundred milions in North America and EU, there are billions people that are victim of poor, uneducation, war...

Criticize Mahayana is a good merit, because Mahayana is a lie, cheating. Millions people are victims of it.

What is compassion? Saving them from lies is compassion, action is compassion, not praying nonsense things.

Even if saving them from stupidity is demerit, then I still do it. I do not need the merit of letting people fall into lies, cheats,.. Save those merits for yourself!
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by whynotme » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:34 pm

Javi wrote:Ajahn amaro has invited Christian monks to Abhayagiri, there's a video on YouTube of one giving a talk.

I doubt he would knowingly invite agents of Mara to speak to the sangha if he believed this.
Who is Ajahn Amaro? It seems he is an important figure.

Oh, and a video on youtube, the way you talked, it seems an important video.

Good evidences for yourself.

Of course many monks do not know Mara. Even Lord Buddha said very few people understand his teaching, so your monk is not so special.

Well, I think I can not convince anyone here, so let it be other ways. You Buddhists are so smart.
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:41 pm

whynotme wrote:Criticize Christianity is a good merit. For the enjoyment of several hundred milions in North America and EU, there are billions people that are victim of poor, uneducation, war...
And only Christian nations have poverty, lack of education, war? Theravāda Buddhist countries do not have poverty, "uneducation", war?

Poverty, uneducation, and war, are not special to any religion or any nation or group of peoples. You seem to be criticizing Abrahamic faiths because they "innately" cause problems that are, in fact, universal problems, that you will find among Buddhists as well, because Buddhists, like Christians and Muslims, are merely humans.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by whynotme » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:41 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
whynotme wrote:Criticize Christianity is a good merit. For the enjoyment of several hundred milions in North America and EU, there are billions people that are victim of poor, uneducation, war...
And only Christian nations have poverty, lack of education, war? Theravāda Buddhist countries do not have poverty, "uneducation", war?

Poverty, uneducation, and war, are not special to any religion or any nation or group of peoples.
Yeah, I welcome you to criticize anything, people, countries, religions that lead to suffering. For example, America with it globally policing bullshit.

Those Theravada countries have poverty, uneducation, war... because they are not follower of Lord Buddha.

For example, the Lord teaches don't kill, but in every Theravada country, they kill animal in large number, what the fracking Buddhism is that? The Lord teaches don't steal, then in those countries, corruption is everywhere. The Mahayana, e.g. Tibetian is pure stupidity. They all are enemy of mankind.

But on the academic level, the teaching of Nikaya is far superior than Christianity or Islam's bullshit.

Compare to Nikaya, the Bible is pure junk, this is fact. Compare to Nikaya, the teaching of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, are pure junk.

So I think science is the best, even Theravada countries should learn it. Without deep understanding of science and metaphysics, it is very hard to understand Buddhism, they just blah blah about Nikaya. They understand it (Nikaya) wrongly because they failed at basic logic.

For example, in no passage of Nikaya the Lord said there is no self. Anyone with basic logic and comprehending skill will not come to the conclusion that there is no self. But the pure bullshit, illogical people can come to that conclusion. What kind of reading skill is that? They can read the Nikaya all the way they want. Since they don't understand the Buddhism, you can not hope for the good result. They pretend to be polite, but that a deadly politeness.

People can pretend they are good, helping other, but it is pure bullshit. Because the most cruel crime is stupidity. Killing takes one lives, war takes millions lives, but stupidity takes multiple generations. Buddhism is corrupted, both Theravada and Mahayana.

Well, but since you are sensitive, I should say richest countries in the world are Christianity, do you enjoy it?

I am a Buddhist, and the first one in history of this Earth, that can answer the philosophic problem of mind - body relation. This is a very important question, not only to philosophy but for science, find a Christian/ Islamic/ Hindu philosopher can answer that. How can the mind arise from the brain?
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:53 pm

whynotme wrote:Those Theravada countries have poverty, uneducation, war... because they are not follower of Lord Buddha.
And why doesn't it follow that monotheistic cultures have povery, uneducation, war... because they are not followers of their own prophets?
whynotme wrote:But on the academic level, the teaching of Nikaya is far superior than Christianity or Islam's bullshit.
You just aren't familiar with the academic traditions of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, etc. I assume you they have highly developed internal philosophies and justifications that cannot be simply dismissed as obvious nonsense without being very familiar with them.
whynotme wrote:Compare to Nikaya, the Bible is pure junk, this is fact. Compare to Nikaya, the teaching of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, are pure junk.
I guess you are allowed to have this opinion. I have a different one. Most people, actually, have a different opinion, but you can be right and most other people can be wrong if that suits you. I have no complaint I guess. You are free to think what you want. But when you say objectively wrong things, don't expect people to just let wrong things be presented as truth.
whynotme wrote:For example, in no passage of Nikaya the Lord said there is no self. Anyone with basic logic and comprehending skill will not come to the conclusion that there is no self. But the pure bullshit, illogical people can come to that conclusion. What kind of reading skill is that? They can read the Nikaya all the way they want. Since they don't understand the Buddhism, you can not hope for the good result. They pretend to be polite, but that a deadly politeness.
If you want to try to spin Buddhavacana to allow room for a self, true or mundane, you should probably try so on this thread.
whynotme wrote:Well, but since you are sensitive, I should say richest countries in the world are Christianity, do you enjoy it?
I am not sensitive, I assume you :sage: :thinking: , but suffice to say, "richest" is not equivalent to "best".
whynotme wrote:I am a Buddhist, and the first one in history of this Earth, that can answer the philosophic problem of mind - body relation. This is a very important question, not only to philosophy but for science, find a Christian/ Islamic/ Hindu philosopher can answer that. How can the mind arise from the brain?
Ok. I am glad you believe that you are the first Buddhist. I would have thought that maybe Ānanda, or Sāriputta, or most likely the Bodhisatta himself, might have that honour, if any "one" person did, but you do. Ok.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by lostitude » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:48 pm

Will wrote:
However I do not think Zoroaster, Rama, Krishna, Moses, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Jesus and other major founders were Mara's followers. (Not sure about Mohamet.)
And why would Mohammad deserve such a special treatment?

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