Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
whynotme
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Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2011 5:52 am

Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by whynotme » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:27 am

This is my theory, so enjoy it yourself. I did a quick google, but, it seems that no one know this fact, as people were blinded by Mara for too long (2500 years). The purpose of this is to warn people about the danger of phenomena that they maybe don't understand.

I - Short version

In the Cakkavatti Sutta, the Buddha said he did not envision any strength that so hard to overcome as the strength of Mara.

Now, as you can see in the history, the most powerful force that imprisons the lives, minds and bodies of multiple generations, is the Church of Christianity. It is very hard to overcome that strength, the teaching of the Bible, and it seems that the strength of the Church is greater than Mara??? So, the Buddha's teaching is not true, as there is other strength that is more powerful than Mara?

If you believe in the Buddha then it is clearly that the strength of the Church must not be as powerful as Mara, and the only logical explanation is that, the Christianity and other monotheistic religions, e.g. Islam, Judaism... must be the productions of Mara. The Mara controls the whole world under his influence.

Disclaimer:

For people come from Christian or other monotheistic traditions, this may be an insult, but this is just a view from Buddhism.

Because people often think that, it is my religion, it is my father's religion, my grand parent's religion, my great grand's.... it's my country's religion, my race's religion.... so I need to protect it, or I must follow it, even it is wrong. But that is just shortsighted.

For example, people think Islam is my religion, but they don't know that in the beginning, their ancestors are free people, and then their great great grand father might be killed by Islamic warriors, their great great grand mother might be raped by them, to convert their sons and daughters into Islam, and then they still think that Islam is their religion or their tradition. No, it is not their tradition in any bit. That religion killed their ancestors, torture them, steal their properties, enslave them... and their descendants sacrifice their lives to protect the religion that killed their father and brother. Totally awesome!

And on other lands, black people think Christianity is my religion, but they too don't know that their great ancestors were enslaved by white people, sold abroad, and then forced to Christianity. Yes Christianity is my religion because it killed my great grand fathers and brothers, who were free people. The white people laughed at them, we enslaved them (black people), killed their fathers, steal their lives, and then they still think our religion is their religion and worship our god. Yes, it is the religion of the white people, but black people are so devout to Christianity, the religion that killed and enslaved their people.

But white people should not laugh at all, because in the end, they are the same. They may think, Christianity is my religion, and we successfully spread it. No, in the beginning, white people's great great grand fathers were free people, but they were tortured, beaten to death, killed by Christianity, and then their sons and daughters think that it is my religion because they were so scared. And the most courageous action they could to, were creating protestant, and still worshiping the god that killed their fathers and brothers.

Just kiss his ass, yes, the god's ass, the almighty ass, kiss it stupid people, it smells so good. That ass smells blood and darkness, it tastes so good, isn't it, the bones and flesh of your own people? That god raped your great ancestor, killed your great ancestor, but I need to protect it, I must follow it, because I am stupid, right? In the end, people are just victims of Roman, specifically emperor Constantine. So many people kiss his ass, it must be really beautiful. Wanna kiss my ass? It may be not pretty, but much more better than that stupid ass.

Is any word here wrong? That is just fact, historical fact, you can not deny it. Yes, you are very brave and smart to protect it, those religions that killed your great grand ancestor and still brings suffering to billions in the world in the present day. Mara the Devil holds his hand over the whole world.

So if you think this is an insult, then you are insulting your great grand ancestors.

Think for them, how do you feel if someone robs your properties, rapes your wife, enslaves you, tortures you, and then forces your sons and daughters to worship that person? How do your ancestors think if they know that you use all your strength to protect their killer?

I have seen people spread the doctrine "there is god" in this forum, and I know those people are under the influence of Mara and his followers. Do you think you are smart, that those kind of actions can get through without notice? Do you think that is harmony and peace, that different religions live together? That is just pure stupid when a teaching based on prayer and a teaching based on hard working live together. Lord Buddha said prayer has no effect, even when 6 billions people pray at the same time.

Do you want to teach your sons and daughters that the world was created in 7 days? Do you want to teach them how to manage slave? How to stone other people to death? God my ass. Luckily, Therevada people are smart, and in no way your stupid Mara can wipe out true Buddhism on this planet Earth.

II - Long version

A - About Mara

1/ What is Mara?

In Nikaya, the Buddha often called Mara the Evil One, the Death, which is used to describe an evil god who will try to control people to do wrong actions that leads to suffering.

In the Buddhist universe, there multiple heavens, divided into three main realms: desired realm, form realm and formless realm. Mara is the god of the highest heaven of desired realm, the realm where beings have two sexes: male and female, and have sexual desire.

What??? Do the gods exist??? Like a fantasy world. Where do we live? In a modern world with science and technology, where do we find them?

Because of this atheistic thought, many people often think Mara is internal things, e.g. evil thoughts... and often negate the concept of Mara as a deva (god).

I will try to explain this, as for the goal of Buddhism, two things can be considered the same. Because Mara and his followers try to control your actions, they want to control your thoughts and emotions. If you can control your thoughts and emotions, then they don't have any clue to control your actions, so you can think Mara as internal thoughts and feelings, and it will have the same effect.

For example, let say the Boss of a crime organization, and he orders you to go stealing something. If you do it, you must agree to him, e.g. you want to steal or part of reward. So in order for the external crime to control you, you must have an internal crime. If you don't want to steal or do illegal kill, then the crime boss can not order or pay you to do illegal works. In the same sense, if you can control your internal feelings, then they (Mara and his followers) can not control you. So Mara can be viewed one way or another, but still can lead to the same goal (Nibbanna or better life).

2/ How can external Mara control you?

In the Maratajjaniya Sutta, it shows that at least Mara can affect other's body, e.g. stomach, so it seems he can make stomach ache, head ache, heart ache... which will weaken your will, create fear, e.g. I am ill, so I will not do this any more, I need to rest, I am going to die...

Mara can read your mind, know your loves, hates, predict the future and influence your dream. The mind reading ability or future prediction is quite normal, but for uninformed people, it may make them scared, so Mara can control them by letting them know that their mind are read. For normal people, the NSA, Google or Facebook may know about you better than yourselves by reading your searches and likes.... but do you fear them? No. Then how should you fear mind reading or future telling?

They can influence people dream, e.g. legends said that emperor Constantine dreamed that if he used Christian symbol then he would have won battles. That is quite a cheap trick to influence key people of the history, but it contributed quite successfully in converting him to Christianity. That is one example that Mara knows key people in history with good kamma, because he can see past and future, so he tries to influence them.

Mara can grant supernatural abilities. This comes from real life observation, that people with supernatural abilities may said it comes from higher invisible beings. While this is not mentioned in Nikaya, it is quite common in Mahayana. The only mentions in Nikaya are cases where Buddha allowed normal people to see the invisible world, e.g. Nanda his brother, which seems the ability can be temporary possessed.

With abilities like those, Mara is quite powerful to influence stupid people, who have greed and anger. He knows your desire, he knows your past lives, your kamma, your potential. He can choose key people in history to influence them to control the world. For example, he can choose to grant Muhammed the founder of Islam the ability to see and hear through distance, so Muhammed can gain control over other people, and then Mara gained control over Muhammed. He could choose to influence emperor Constantine's dream or told some prediction to make him favor Christianity. Those people are easy to fool, but any modern and scientific man will not fall into those cheap tricks.

3/ The kamma of Mara action

If you follow the Buddha's instruction, in no way you can be controlled by Mara. But not all high ranking people in the world know this, even they are billionaires, political leaders,... they can easily fall into the trap with some simple tricks. Remember that if you follow Mara, and your actions bring suffering to people, you will get the result of your action. For example, Constantine, the emperor who fooled the mass by employed Christianity must pay for his action, millions people died, tortured, the scientific progress is ceased... all of them are the consequence of Constantine's choice.

So who pays for the kamma of wrong action?

It seems that if a person is totally possessed by an invisible being, that invisible being will get the result of action, as shown in Maratajjaniya Sutta, where Mara Dusi was born in hell immediately after the action.

But Mara is very powerful and has great knowledge, so I don't think he is stupid like that. Often he will try to control indirectly, to evade the kamma. For example he will try admire or insult, to guide people do wrong action, so influenced people will choose to do the action themselves, and get the kamma for themselves.

Let's say If a crime boss want to evade the law, he may tell the lies about another person, so his follower may get angry and kill that person. In the end, the boss did not do anything wrong to get into murder offense, and still get the person he want to die while evade the law. Mara and his followers may choose to do similar. With the ability to control feeling, e.g. headache, heartache... future telling,... then Mara can make normal people annoyed, scared or angry easily. But if you can control your emotions, Mara and his followers can not control you.

4/ Protection against Mara and his army

Remember that Mara and his followers are masters of delusions, so you can not trust them. For example, they may tell the future accurately 10 times to gain your trust, but the 11th time, they intentionally telling false prediction to control your action. How do you know their intentions? What can you offer them to control them? They don't need you, they are the highest beings of desired realm, where anything they want is created for them. They don't need anything in this world, they just want to mess around. Even when the Buddha just got enlightenment, Mara already tried to tell the Buddha to die and not teach the dhamma. They want to get rid of Buddhism from the Earth.

Even a person tell you to do good actions, it doesn't guarantee that he/she is a good person. For example, the crime boss may do good action to evade the inspection of police, or he may tell you to do good action to gain your trust, until he finds something bad for you. Mara and his followers may teach people to do good actions, because if they do the opposite, no one will believe them. A clearly visible opponent is easy, but a camouflaged opponent is the most dangerous opponent. Mara may even teach the same thing of Lord Buddha, but his intention does not change, to gain influence to control people. Remember that Devadatta taught the same thing as Lord Buddha, but he is just copycat.

The safest way is to follow the Buddha's teaching, and make decisions based on reason and fact from this world, and try to evade the trap of supernormal powers. You can not play against Mara, who can see past and future, can read mind and have the intention to fool people. I think the most effective way is to imprison anyone that tries to use supernormal abilities to influence people. That why true enlightened one don't use supernormal abilities but only teaches moral values.

5/ And I think Mara and his followers may be prepared:

They may deny that they are evil, and claim that they are good, or claim you mistake them with others. Well, it depends on you, do you want to trust them. Like the claims of the governments, do you want to trust them? Anyone who want to spread the invisible world and supernormal power is the follower of Mara. We mankind don't need that, we only need moral value.

They may claim that they changed, yes, they were evil in the past but now they are good, they follow the Lord Buddha. LOL, even the Lord Buddha could not tame Mara in the past, who can change them for good? They just mess around, run around and tell lies. Mara is the evil one, the death, in no way he can change.

They may admit it, yes, we are Mara, we are Devil, so they try to scare you to control you. Remember they are just illusions, if they mess with your real life benefit, just kick their asses. As history shows, we mankind is the owner of this world, we should not fear those fvking scumbags from the invisible world. Their ability is just limited to illusion only, there is no hard evidence that they can control the physical objects as in fantasy movies. Or punch them in the face.

B - The monothesitic religions

1/ All religions are good, only people make it bad

This type of bullshit!

If you think like this, are you a 5th grade school boy? Or still in the kindergarten, so that you don't know how to read and write? This is the bullshit Mara loves the most, because it equates everything, stupid or smart, lazy or hardworking man, all are the same. And then the bullshit of monotheistic religion is the same as the teaching enlightened monks. The world is created in 7 days is equal to divine eye which can see millions of world systems.

Anyone who can read, and can spend some time on just the abstraction of religions, will know that all religions are not the same. Some religions are extremely stupid, while other religion is extremely wise.

Some religions are useless, where they teach prayer can bring real properties, or thanks an invisible god where no one has ever seen for the success of labor, while other religion teaches hardworking, visions and relying on oneself. So they are the same as good?

Some religions teach about killing, not only animal but human for bullshit reasons, like they are just followers of another religion, and then enslaving them, selling them, while other religion teaches non killing, even small animal. So they are the same as good?

Some religions explain about the world like a kindergarten, like the world is created in 7 days, while other religion teach about things that even the best telescope can not see. And they are all the same as good?

Bad doctrine makes people stupid, do stupid things, while good doctrine makes people wise, and do smart things. There is no such thing as all religions are all good. Stupid people are just victims of stupid religions.

2/ The monotheistic religions are still good, as they teach moral value

If you say this, you are so naive, or you are extremely dangerous with the intention to fool people. The good of monotheistic religions is just on paper, but the bad of them is in real life.

If you are naive, then you should remember that Mara is not an elementary school boy, his plan is to get rid of Buddhism from this Earth. So if you create a religion that only teaches violence and bad things, that religion will die shortly. Mara is not that stupid, he is a deva that can see through time and space and read people's minds. To gain trust, you must have something good, that why all monotheism religions teach something good, to trap innocent people, to give them unreachable goals.

500 years after Lord Buddha was born, a religion that teaches about praying rose. Yes, give them the good goal but also give them the most useless tool to reach that goal, which is a prayer. That clearly is the evidence that monotheistic religion is the work of Mara, because all high ranking devas know about samsara and kamma. While they may thought their realm is eternal, they know about samsara of worlds below them. But those two most important facts about this world are hidden in monotheistic religions, why? Because that is an intentional action.

Anyone with half a brain will understand. So the god of Christianity doesn't know about those facts? Very unlikely. Even Mara knows about Lord Buddha's teaching very well. Then who the fracking nut teaches about praying, the most useless tool on Earth? Yes, just pray, then everything will come. Why don't they teach about samsara and kamma? At least Hinduism is better than Christianity or Islam, but still an easy target.

The good things in monotheistic religions are just the wrapper of the poison inside. That is the most effective way to gain trust and deliver the poison to the victims. Do you want to teach your sons and daughters that the world was created in 7 days? Or how to stone people to death? Yes, modern people still believe in this religion for the good you think on paper.

Yes, all religions are good, only people are bad, it is total bullshit. There is good religion, and there are bad religions.

3/ The Christianity is the base of Western civilization, that makes it more advanced than the rest of the world

The root of Western civilization is from ancient Greek and Roman, but with the appearance of Christianity, the advance of Western civilization was ceased. So, can you see it clearly? The Christianity is poison.

The kamma of Western people were better than the rest of the world, that why Mara tried to influence them, not the opposition. For example, if I want to influence this forum, do I want to gain influence over normal members, or I want to influence the admins and mods? If I want to influence the world, should I try to influence the 6 billions people or just some key people in the world? Of course I will try to influence people with better kamma than average.

Mara knows kamma of people, so he tried to influence Western people with Christianity. Not only that, he will try to influence every possible key people around the world, this is also happening in modern day, but most of you will not know about it. Most of you don't know destined people, but Mara knows, and he will try to influence them. That will be not easy, especially people that trained in the teaching of Lord Buddha.

Without Mara, Constantine would be a much better emperor, without Christianity, Western civilization will progress much faster. But Mara would always try to bend them under his influence. And even people work for him, they don't know his intention, they think they do good work, but they are all cheated.

4/ Jewish people

One of the earlier monotheistic religion is the Judaism of Jewish people. It is hard to find any group of people like them, one of the richest group and highest scientific achievement in mankind history. Does monotheistic religion help them achieving that?

If you use your flesh eyes to conclude about the world, you will fall into the arm of Mara. As mentioned, Mara can see past and future, so he knows the fate of people and countries. According to kamma law, similar people will be born together, and the Jewish group is where many people with good kamma in business and scientific field would be born.

Yes, they are the chosen people, it looks like god help them. But in reality, it is quite the opposite, the Mara chooses them and influences them, because he knows about their talents and destinies.

In Buddhism, to have a single human life, it must be exchanged with thousands, millions lives in other animal or worse realms, like a blind turtle in the ocean. Flesh eye people think there are so much human in the Earth, more than 6 billions, but they don't know, compare to other realms, that number is very small. In a cubed meter of earth, how many worm, how many ant are there? A single colony may contain millions, billions, how many of them in a forest? And how many tiny life form in the oceans? And how many around the globe? The number should be much higher than the number of human, so is the possibility to be born in those realms.

Once the human form is lost, in other worlds, like animal, there is no good action, no good kamma, only killing and eating each other, and it is very hard to return to this form. So in the Buddhist view, success on the mundane world like business or scientific field is not enough, without the understanding of samsara and kamma. The glory of a single life is not worth it.

But the Jewish people didn't know Buddhism, samsara and kamma, very unlucky for those smart people. It is very hard to do business without lying or cheating, especially in the old days when the law is not strict. Lying or cheating, stealing under the name of contract, are two of the serious wrong actions which will lead to suffering. But Jews only love money, and ignore everything else, so it is not hard to understand why holocaust happened, that is just kamma of them. Kamma is very fair, it is the natural law of the universe, it will not mistake someone life.

If Jewish know the teaching of Lord Buddha, by following it, they can evaded that holocaust by not doing wrong actions. Their god only harm them, but they don't know that, because as the Lord Buddha said, there is no strength as powerful as the Mara. He controls the whole world, fools everyone, sinks people in wars, disasters and unhappiness. So for most people, their potential are influenced by Mara. Just imagine if the Jewish people that follow the Lord Buddha, they would have achieved much more than what they have done. Or imagine the emperor Constantine without Christianity, the Europe can evade a thousand years of darkness.

But it is extremely hard to evade Mara, only people with good kamma can recognize him. If you never tell lie, then that kamma may help you find out the truth, and not fall to the Mara's influence. If you didn't cheat other in previous lives, then that kamma guarantee no one can cheat you, even Mara.

In the end, I think smart Jews will realize the value of Buddhism, especially in the age of telecommunication technology. And only foolish Jews would worship the monotheistic god, the teaching of Mara. If they don't believe this, then even they can control America through media and financial system, that is not enough to protect them from the kamma of wrong actions.

5/ Mara's works

He created monotheistic religions like Christianity and Islam to influence people. Another evidence is that both religions accept Jesus, so there must be a connection between them that normal people can not create. Maybe Jesus was one of the first key people fall under the influence of Mara in recent time. So if you heard about any religion that talk about Jesus, or blah blah about mythical events, it is the production of Mara.

When he meets religion that is much more deeper, e.g. Buddhism where samsara and kamma are taught, he will try to infiltrate bullshit doctrine like Mahayana to fool people. He will teach about Amitābha Buddha, to lure people into praying. He may grant supernatural power to some people to prove that praying the name of Amitabha Buddha works, but that is just an illustration trick. But those influenced people spread stories about invisible world and supernatural power to lure people. And they often like to talk about Jesus, which also implies that they are under the influence of Mara. Jesus seems to be Mara's favored figure.

He and his follower will try to influence political leaders, or rich businessmen, you know, for flesh eye people, telling something supernatural scares the brain out of them, like future prediction or mind reading. And when they can influence them, they can influence so many people. The influenced people may even think, oh, lucky for me to have a secret source of information, or the god helps me, or I am the chosen one,... but in the end, they are just victims of Mara and his followers.

Greedy people will fall for this trick. But remember, whatever they tell you, supernormal power is useless against kamma. You can try all you want, I am here to stand and see. In no way supernormal power works. Someone is rich and powerful because of his/her kamma, not because information from mystical forces.

C - The invisible world does exist

To understand the Mara and above concepts, people must understand about the invisible world. This theory is based on observations from the real world phenomena, and from the teaching of the enlightened monk. I will try to explain, so people can understand it.

First of all, in the teaching of the Buddha, nothing really exists, includes this material world and all the worlds of gods. If anything really exists, that thing must be permanent, but everything we know is impermanent, so nothing really exists. Because of that, any teaching that says those gods don't exist, it is true. And in fact, we can ignore those worlds of gods completely for the sake of the modern life, as history is demonstrated, the mankind builds and controls this Earth, not any kind of god.

But for the purpose of knowledge, for seeking the truth, or to explain to anyone really curious, we can talk about the temporary existence. And in this sense, the invisible world of gods, hell, asura,... does really exist.

It is not something like you can see in movies or fantasy stories, where gods, angels and demons fly around shooting fire balls or superheroes cast magical spells on colorful adventures... The reality is more boring, e.g. the lower devas do really exist around us in everyday life. But why can't we have any evidence of them, in the age of science, when we can see sub atomic particles, and travel in space? I have seen people that bet on dark matter, etc... or use other unknown physical phenomena to explain the worlds described in the canonical suttas.

The answer is that: those are the worlds of perception, i.e. imagination, without material. This answer came from enlightened being, so don't try to use your mundane brain to discredit it. The more you see mythical phenomena, the more you will be agree with it. So I think we should call them spirits rather than using gods, because that name implies they are non physical. Modern people often ignore imagination as not important, but ancient people did not, and they see two worlds, the material and the invisible, the same.

D/ The model of existence

We often call them gods, devas, brahmas... in the sense that they are real worlds somewhere and try to find them. When we can not measure them (the invisible worlds) with our extremely accurate devices, then we say they don't exist. So how do they exist?

This is my theory, feel free to accept it or not.

How do many worlds exist without material?

First of all, I must say, with our current modern devices, we still can not measure consciousness, which means consciousness is non physical. It is a common phenomenon, everyone can experience it, but no physical device can measure it. So on the other hand, I think those invisible worlds are similar to our consciousness and imagination, they are non physical.

1. Dualism?

So, if we consider physical and non physical worlds exist in parallel, is it dualism?

Dualism is school that think mind and body are different, and they interact with each other.

I am against dualism, as I think dualism is wrong. There is only one this physical world, and no other world.

Why is dualism wrong?

The error of dualism is that dualism think non physical phenomena can interact with physical phenomena, e.g. mind controls body.

Which force does the mind use to control body? Then is that force physical or non physical? If that force is physical or non physical, then the problem returns to the start, how can non physical phenomena contact physical phenomena? If that force is not physical and not non-physical, then we have a new doctrine, not dualism, but trialism (three items) as there are physical, non physical and their bridge (the force).

But then, how the bridge (the force) connect non physical to physical phenomena? We return to the start, just to make it more complex, as we have three items, and need two bridges between them, the bridge between the non physical phenomena to the force, and the bridge between the force and the physical world.

In the end, this will never end, non physical world can not contact with physical world. That why dualism is wrong.

The example also clearly points out that the doctrine "God exists outside of this world" is pure bullshit. If god is non-world, how can he create the world? Let say he just wishes, then the world appears. So in this statement, we have three items, god, the world and the wish of god. The wish is the bridge between god and the world, similar to the force above. Now, how the fracking the wish contact the world or contact the god? We will come to the never ending cycle. Only one logical choice is concluding that anything non-world can not contact the world. So the creation is pure bullshit.

2. Monism

As history of science proves that anything interacts with the material world is material, there is no exception.

In dualism we can think that the mind control body. Since the mind is non physical, it will be a magical force that can control body (material). And since the mind is non physical, no physical device can measure or see it, which means the mind is an invisible force.

Now we take a look at magnets, a magnet can push or pull another magnet based on poles. It is magical because the magnet doesn't need to touch or contact but can still move each other. If that is not magical then what else is magic?

So the first explanation is: the magnet spreads a magical force to move other magnet. But is that force non physical? No one in history has ever seen the force from a magnet that pushes other magnet, so it must be invisible. It is magical and invisible, so it must be non physical.

For people that think we can see the electromagnetic wave, then you are the victims of modern education. No one knows how electromagnetic wave look like, it is totally invisible. We can only see the effect of it, for example, if there an iron bar near a magnet, then we see that it will be moved, but we don't know what moves that. People just name it electromagnetic field for the sake of calling. And we will use that name to call our magical force of a magnet.

So we just name the magical force of a magnet as electromagnetic field, it is still invisible and unknown. Now if a magnet can move a 1kg iron bar while another magnet can move 2kg iron bar, then we think the magical force of the later is stronger. We think it is two times stronger. So we can name an unit to tell people about its strength, lets call it Tesla. Now, even we can tell others how strong the force from a magnet is, we still can see the force or know what the force is, it is still magical and invisible.

Do you understand the concept? We can only see the effect of electromagnetic field, e.g. the iron bar is moved, or the electrons are moved so the light will be turned on, but we can not see the electromagnetic field directly, no one can. The field itself is still invisible and magical. No matter what theory or device you are using, the electromagnetic field will always be magical and invisible. You can not see it, you will never see it, and you can only see the effect of it on visible object, e.g. iron bar or conductive wire.

All the things we thought the measurement of electromagnetic field is actually from the effect of it on visible object. For example, a radar can track an electromagnetic pulse, so you think a radar can see the electromagnetic wave? You are wrong, actually the magical field moves the electrons in the wire, and other device will measure voltage or current in the wire to tell if the pulse is returned. When a camera or flesh eyes see images, do you think they can measure electromagnetic wave (photons)? No, no one or no device can measure the field, they can only measure the effect of the field. The field itself will always magical and invisible.

So what is the different if there is another non physical force, e.g. the force of the mind that can control the body? Let's assume the mind is non physical but can control the body, e.g. moves it. Basically there is nothing new, the mind is just magical and invisible. And then, if the mind can move a 1kg body then we call it 1 unit in strength, let's name it MS (mind strength), and if the mind can move a 2kg body, then we will say it is 2 MS.

Do you see it? Anything that can contact with material is material, no matter how much you can try to make it mystical. We can apply the same process to measure its strength or other properties. Every magical force can be measured by the effect of it on material, and in the end, the magical force will be categorized as physical and material, similar to electromagnetic field. So dualism will be the dead end, as anything non physical phenomenon dualism can throw at us, if it can contact material, move material, change material or alter material, then we can always categorize it as physical.

3. Mind vs body

OK, let's accept monism, there is only this physical world, then what is consciousness? Well, consciousness is non physical, but it is not independent from material.

The old example is two sides of a coin, or two side of a paper, they are two sides of a single object. The universe has two sides, physical and non physical (conscious, mental) sides.

What is the difference from dualism? In dualism, mind and body are two objects that exist independently, e.g. one object can exist while the other does not, like the mind can exist without body. In this monism, mind and body are just two sides of a single object, they co exist together. Wherever physical phenomenon exists, consciousness exists, whenever consciousness exists, physical phenomenon exist. Since they co exist, the question that how they contact and control each other is not a problem, they don't contact each other because they are just a single unit.

This also explains an old saying of Buddhism, that consciousness penetrates everywhere, because wherever material exists, consciousness exists. To understand the concept, we can look at this example, the mind and body is similar to electric and magnetic field. Electric field is not magnetic field, but they can not be separated, they are two sides (dimensions) of the electromagnetic field. If we see material is a field in space and time, then we can view consciousness as another field that spread over the same space and time, similar to electric and magnetic field, they are co exist simultaneously.

It should be noted that materialism is not monism, even most of them claim that otherwise. Materialism thinks that mental phenomena is the result of material interaction, which is wrong. Because it is illogical that physical interaction can create non physical phenomena. This school will never explain, and can not explain how material can create consciousness. Materialism is just a dualism, because it supposes that material can exist without consciousness, as it supposes material can create mental phenomena.

In monism, both material and mental phenomena are just two sides of a single world, they co exist, and can not exist without each other. If any doctrine suppose that they don't co exist, then it is dualism.

4. The brain

We can look into the brain to understand the consciousness. The brain can be seen as a complex machine that works based on chemical reaction and electrical signal. Everything we know happens there: action, feeling, will, 6 senses, color, sound, emotion... the subjective consciousness of each person is created by the brain.

It should be noted that things like color or sound is not physical in any sense, but people are so familiar with them, e.g. they see the world with color, so they may think color is a physical property, a blue car, a green tree... Even physical terms are often very misleading, e.g. speed of sound, or red color wavelength is from 600nm to 750nm. Actually, there is nothing as color or sound in the physical world, they are the production of the brain only. Just remember that nothing in the consciousness is physical, then you will accept it easily.

Back to the brain, so how physical phenomena, e.g. electrical signal and chemical reaction, can create non physical phenomena, e.g. color, sound, feeling...? As we can see, chemical reaction works based on electrical force between electrons and proton, and both of them can be seen as electric field. So, a simplest model can be given that what we feel is the production of the electrical field.

This idea is old, but it seems weird, because electrical field seems very inorganic. But if you think consciousness is not from the electrical field, then what else happens in the brain? Just magic?

If we accept that consciousness is just a production of electrical field, then how about every other circuit, computer...? They all work on electrics. From the monism above, whenever material exists, not only electrical field, but magnetic field, mass,... then conscious field exists. So yes, the conscious exists not only in the brain, but everywhere, in every circuit, in every space, under water, in vacuum, on the Mars, in the black hole...

So why doesn't the circuit or the computer or a tree think or tell us about what they feel? While the consciousness exists everywhere, their properties are different, similar to electrical field, not every point is the same. It may create sine wave, rectangle wave... their amplitudes may be strong, weak or negative, or may have different frequencies... The mental field is similar. The consciousness of a rat, or a cockroach is very far from consciousness of a human brain. The consciousness in empty space may be just near zero, while the consciousness of a tree may be just very weak.

Also, to feel, to think or to tell us, it needs structure to support those actions. For example, if human brain is damaged, then feeling, thinking or vocal function may be affected. So for a tree, a rat or empty space, they don't have the structure needed to support those actions. And to communicate with us by using voice, it needs a physical structure that can emit sound, e.g. a speaker. They lack all of them, so they can not tell us how they feel.

In the brain, two sides of the world show up. For example, a thought has two sides, what we feel is the mental side of a thought, and the flashes in the electrical field is the physical side of that thought, they are just two sides of a single phenomena. A green tree we see is the mental side, and the flashes in the electrical field is the physical side, they co exist, one in the conscious world, one in the physical world.

If we think that consciousness can not exist outside the brain, then we fall into dualism, as we think material can exist without consciousness. If that is the case then what is the difference between the flash of the electrical field inside the brain and in empty space? There is nothing different, if the flash in the brain can create the consciousness, then the flash outside the brain can do the same thing.

I think the point of the brain is not creating consciousness, but creating a bridge between consciousness and physical body. For example, the flash in the empty space will also create consciousness, but what is the point of that consciousness? The flash in the brain can connect to other organs, e.g. to control vocal function to tell the other, what thing does the flash in the empty space control? Nothing.

We need a brain because we need a machine to process consciousness, but that is not the only way to do it. For example, we can create a vehicle with wheel to move easily, but evolution can not create wheel, because there is no way to feed nutrition to the wheel, so we must use limbs to move.

So while consciousness exists on all other type of material, e.g. magnetic field, electrical field is the most easy way to send, receive, process and control signal. Even we human can not use magnetic systems to send, receive or process signal. And while we can use optical or wireless communication, evolution just can not find a way to achieve that, similar to how it can not find a way to implement wheel into biological body. That why evolution must use the brain in the form as we know, with its electrical and chemical signal to process consciousness.

It should be note that, while we think the brain works based on electrical field, that is just a part of electromagnetic field. As any change in electrical field will create a change in magnetic field, so every flash in electrical field is also a flash in magnetic field.

In the end, consciousness is just the other side of material. What we call decision, thinking, feelings, emotions are just electrical signal in the brain. And so we human must use electrical field to imagine or to dream.

5. Consciousness in space

If electrical field in the brain can create consciousness, then can the electrical field create consciousness without the brain? Very possible, because the brain is just a tool for the electrical signal to transmit.

So while we human must use electrical field to think, feel, perceive, imagine, dream, sleep.... other life form may use different approaches. For example, if we can build a brain based on magnetic field, or optic brain, or even wireless brain, where it doesn't need physical path but operates on empty space. This bases on monism, as physical and mental phenomena must co exist, or if one thing can exist without the other then it is dualism, and illogical.

And that is maybe the other life forms, e.g. devas and gods. They can think, imagine, feel or process consciousness based on the electrical or magnetic field in the empty space. The universe is just the brain of them. But they lack the physical device, e.g. speakers or physical mouths, to communicate with us.

To measurement device, the brain is just tiny noises of electromagnetic field, but from experience, we know the consciousness does exist. So the noise in the empty space, that is the mind of the invisible world. They may imagine their own bodies, similar to how we have different bodies in dreams. All their life is based on imagination, because they lack the physical body, they can not control this world directly.

When people train in some special traditions, e.g. in mediation, some parts of their brain can decode the information from electromagnetic field, i.e. the wireless brain, and can communicate with the invisible world.

In the end, the invisible world is like a virtual world, while it must be based on physical world, e.g. power source, IC, screen, it just an imagination. The invisible world is the mental field of the world, and it must co exists with the physical world. If we think the invisible world is not physical, it is like saying imagination is not physical, then we fall into the trap of dualism, which is totally wrong. Everything we do must be based on physical world, include imagine and dream.

Since everything is physical, theoretically I think the invisible beings can contact the physical world, as some cases were mentioned in Nikaya, but there is no evidence of that action in real world, given the number of the invisible beings is huge. So maybe they lack interest, or maybe they just can't contact the world physically, and must communicate through consciousness, e.g. dream, or through a medium or a possessed person. Like characters on a virtual world, e.g. video games, to communicate with them you must enter virtual world as they don't possess the ability to communicate with the physical world. If that is the case then we should ignore them completely, they are just illusions, or just the some little noises in the electromagnetic field.

6. Samsara

So the universe contains two sides: physical and mental field. When a being dies, according to its actions, it can be reborn in the physical form, as human or animal, or it can be reborn without the physical form, as deva, brahma and in hell... While traditional Buddhism calls it the form realm, which means those beings have bodies, those bodies are just imagination, like the bodies of characters in a virtual world. But even with that, the suffering or the happiness of those beings are real, like the suffering or the happiness in the dream is real to the person perceive it.

The invisible world is similar the brain in the vat, as everything there is virtually created by the brain, which maybe is the physical universe itself. Since that world is non physical, it is quite easy to achieve what you want by just imagination, which explains the happiness of deva. What they want can be created easily for themselves.

Heaven is like a dream, where you can control your dream, you can created what you want in that dream. What is the point of having a supercar in real world or a supercar in a dream? If you can feel it then it is real for you. So if I can control my dream like that then I would have slept all day, and I guess most of people would have done the same. And I guess a women in the virtual world is much more easily to be created perfectly than a physical women, which explains the beauty of the deva, they can be what they want to look like.

Kamma is the universal law, to enter that imagined realms you must do good actions. But still, even with heaven, everything must come to an end, beings in invisible world still must die, when their dream stops, they must awake and return to the physical world.

On the other hand, hell is like a nightmare, where you can not control your dream, but must accept everything come to you. Both heaven and hell are real to the people perceive them, but to the physical device, they are just white noise in the material field, similar to how a dream in a brain is just tiny white noises in electromagnetic tracking device.

E - Conclusion

This writing is a warning that everything Lord Buddha said is real, samsara is real, kamma is real and Mara is real, not just a metaphor. And by knowing about them, people can drive away the mist and the fear from unknown phenomena, that want to control and harm the world. It also provides a realistic model on how such things may happen, which connects our modern understanding of the universe with the ancient wisdom, so people can accept the Buddhism more easily. I think this is the most advanced theory that human can build to describe our world, as I have never seen anything better, except the direct wisdom of enlightened people.

And I hope that while my theory is in the right direction, it is not perfect yet. And it will be used for others or next generations to develop more accurate models of our universe. So enjoy it yourself.
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:15 am

For people come from Christian or other monotheistic traditions, this may be an insult, but this is just a view from Buddhism.
-There is no mention of Abrahamic religions in Buddhism. Christianity and Islams are later developments. So it is not a view of Buddhists.
-It is easy to sit in front of a modern day computer and criticise what happened in the history. Abraham lived in an era people sacrifice human. He try to replace that with the sacrifice of a lamb. So that i would say progress.
- Even if you consider Hinduism they also play a part in the development of Buddhism.
- Even Buddhist are involve with many un Buddhist practices.
- However I agree that Abrahamic religions failed to move forward. But you will be better if you pay attention to what is happening today rather than what happened 2000 years ago.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by SarathW » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:21 am

Interesting story about a Christian monk helping a Buddhist monk.
If you are patient enough the story get even better towards the end.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGhn3N-tK7Q
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Aloka » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:17 am

.

Personally I regard the meaning of "Mara" as one's own negative mental states, rather than an exterior devil-like being.


This is a 6 minute extract "I know you Mara", that's worth listening to from Ajahn Amaro talking about " Practising with the Four Noble Truths"





There's also a talk he gave called "Satan versus Mara" which he said was :
the opportunity to look at the different kinds of mythology that we have in Buddhism and the Judeo-Christian traditions of Europe


:anjali:
Last edited by Aloka on Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by ToVincent » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:21 pm

Buddha wrote:In this world with its devas, maras, and brahmas, in this generation with its ascetics and brahmins, its devas and humans.
Sadevake loke samārake sabrahmake sassamaṇabrāhmaṇiyā pajāya sadevamanussāya.
More than a dozen references to this pericope; just in the Saṃyutta with parallels in other texts (Agamas, etc.)

I'd call maras & friends, the ones who use the four elements (mahābhūtā) to their purposes. The voodooists. The khatha aakhom clique, etc. The deluded ones, who even confound Mara's plane of existence with the Hell's plane of existence.

I'd call the awakened ones the ones who guard their "internal" four elements (and derivatives; viz. eye, ear, mouth, body and intellect/mano) from maras' influences. The ones that do not use the four elements unwisely - for "wise" means "from the origin" (yoniso). I'd call the awakened ones the ones who build (and meditate) with the mind (manasikaroti), from the origin (breath); and not from mahābhūtā.
https://suttacentral.net/en/sn35.245/15

No particular wrongdoing in monotheistic religions. Unsuitable "miracles" are universally shared.
There is as much hierarchy in the elements of thoughts, than in the elements of Spirit. This hierarchy is defined in the planes of existence.


Buddha wrote:Bhikkhus, there may be alteration in the four great elements ... but there cannot be alteration in the noble disciple who possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones.
SN 55.17

Suppose, Ananda, at a crossroads there is a great mound of soil. If a cart or chariot comes from the east, west, north, or south, it would flatten that mound of Soil. So too, kanda, when a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, feelings in feelings, mind in mind, phenomena in phenomena, he flattens evil unwholesome states."
SN 54.10 or SN 54.13

"Miracles" and science (The Paranormal is not Excluded from Physics , by Beauregard).
It is just about how you use it.
Also, "retro-causation", à la Beauregard, goes pretty well with what Buddha awakened to - SN 12.65.

.
In this world with its ..., Māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by freedom » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:01 pm

whynotme wrote: ...
For people come from Christian or other monotheistic traditions, this may be an insult, but this is just a view from Buddhism.
...
English is not my language, but I will try my best to express my view...

I hope that you would say that is your own view (Not the view from Buddhism). I have practiced Buddhism but I have no problem with any other religions. I instead have very high respect to some of their doctrines's point of views even though I do not follow them.

Diversity is what nature is. There is no fixed solution for all. There are many different diseases which require different treatments.

People are not always looking into one direction. Their goals are varied, so their paths are different. If they can reach their goals then they are in the right path. Otherwise, they are in the wrong one no matter how good the path is.

Dualism is what the world is about. People have external and internal characters. They are not always the same. Sacred doctrines also have external and internal senses. Many times, we only see the external but not the internal which is the real substance of the person or a doctrine.

Sacred doctrines have internal senses that are not easy for normal people to understand because it is not yet benefit for them. Just like we do not expose sexual materials to a two year old child because it is not appropriate for that child. When he/she grows up, he/she will find out for himself/herself.

By not understanding the internal senses of a sacred doctrine, people give different interpretations trying to expose the hidden internal senses of the scripture to the world. Therefore, they created many different sects and misunderstanding. However, if we really understand the internal sense of a sacred scripture, we will prefer to keep it as it is. All we can do is to give some hints to whoever could understand and benefit from them.

The internal sense sometimes is completely opposite to the external one. The external is about material/exposed aspect while the internal is about the spiritual/hidden one.

Majority of people are chasing the external world, they do not see the internal one.

By not understanding the internal senses of a sacred doctrine, people trashed the doctrine without realizing that they are creating horrible troubles for themselves (e.g. wrong speech, blasphemy...)

Just like what Lao-tzu in Tao te Ching's Chapter 41 (Translated by J. Legge) has said:

"Scholars of the highest class, when they hear about the Tao,earnestly carry it into practice.
Scholars of the middle class, when they have heard about it, seem now to keep it and now to lose it.
Scholars of the lowest class, when they have heard about it, laugh greatly at it. If it were not (thus) laughed at, it would not be fit to be the Tao."

Not all sacred doctrine is the same. Each doctrine will lead to a different (or sometimes the same) destination. Some doctrines will lead people to heavenly pleasures, other may lead to freedom...

Looking at history of a religion does not always show what its doctrine is about. It only shows how people understand and apply their understandings to the world or to their practices.

People are drawn to a particular religion/sect because of their own kamma. Once the kamma exhausted, they may switch to a different one until they could find their own escapes.

Even though I have practiced Buddhism, I do not consider myself a Buddhist or not a Buddhist or anything else, therefore, my view is also not a representation of Buddhism. I do not seek for any debate so if you do not agree with what I have said, just consider this is just my own view (just like you have your own.) I am not support or against your view; therefore, I do not say that your view is right or wrong. It's up to you to decide that.

Edit: Fixed some grammar errors!
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by davidbrainerd » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:48 pm

I'd revise your whole theory down to a simpler more defensible theory: fundamentalisticly RITUALISTIC notions in religion are in some way from a devil figure and notions of a morality of kindness are in some way from a positive God figure. Even Buddha claims God (Brahma in his terminology) convinced him to preach when he was going to keep the Dhamma to himself thinking nobody could accept it.

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Javi » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:51 pm

Ajahn amaro has invited Christian monks to Abhayagiri, there's a video on YouTube of one giving a talk.

I doubt he would knowingly invite agents of Mara to speak to the sangha if he believed this.
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:06 am

whynotme wrote:...
That's one of the longest posts I've ever seen. Can you provide a summary or synopsis of what your argument is?
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Javi » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:05 am

I posted this elsewhere, a great documentary about monastics from different traditions getting along and being awesome.

Do these Christian monks hanging out with the Buddhist monks look like the agents of mara?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah4nTdyc8Pc
Vayadhammā saṅkhārā appamādena sampādethā — All things decay and disappoint, it is through vigilance that you succeed — Mahāparinibbāna Sutta

Self-taught poverty is a help toward philosophy, for the things which philosophy attempts to teach by reasoning, poverty forces us to practice. — Diogenes of Sinope

I have seen all things that are done under the sun, and behold, all is vanity and a chase after wind — Ecclesiastes 1.14

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by tantric » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:26 pm

does everyone get a theory? :tongue:

this is the history of the Ohsaycanyousea people, who are the aboriginal pygmies of north america, related in kind and story to the !kung of the kalahari and little men of the congo. these are the most ancient peoples,the realpeople, who walked the earth long before the Coloredmen came.

long ago, in the time that was, the realpeople lived with their brother animals in the world. sometimes the realpeople killed and ate another animal, and sometimes an animal killed and ate one of the realpeople, but there was balance in the world.

but then, but not long ago, the redmen came into the world. with the redmen it was thus: though they killed and ate the animals, they would allow no animal to hunt them. if an animal did this, then the redmen went and killed all the animals of this type, even though they could not eat all of them.so the redmen made themselves masters and the animals slaves.

but the redmen could not tell the realpeople from the other animals, probably due to the thick coat of silkly orange hair, like an orang-utan. when the redmen killed and ate one of the realpeople, the rest fled in terror and went to Grandmother Spider and asked what they should do. the realpeople knew that if they killed even one of the redmen, and even then ate all of him, that the other redmen would hunt and kill and waste all the meat of the realpeople, for this was their way.

Grandmother Spider was wise, she keeps all the tales of the old world together. She took two of the realpeople, who were twin brother and sister,their names being Rainbow and River, and wrapped them up in her web and took them deep underground.

Now the realpeople were very afraid – Rainbow and River had been the brightest of their children, and now SpiderWoman had taken them away into the ground. But Spiderwoman returned a lay a great burden upon the remaining realpeople.

she gave them taboo – never again would the realpeople kill other animals,but should an animal kill and eat a realperson, they that would be the way of things this new way. thus the realpeople would become a difference people than the animals, and the redmen would know them and perhaps not hunt them.

the realpeople rejoiced and danced for a while until they found MotherMouse weeping alone – as she walked, she said goodbye to each of the other animals, to mastodons and groundsloths and moas, she bade them farewell, as if they would never be again, and this brought a somber note to the joy of the realpeople, for Mother Mouse is wise and farseeing.

so the realpeople felt themselves anew, and came upon the redmen with open arms. but the redmen bound the arms of the realpeople, and beat them, and made them slaves. so it came to be that the redmen were the masters of the world, and the realpeople their chattel and slaves, and the other animals were afraid and spoke no more as yet.

but the realpeople, the people of the open plains and stars and skies and seas, could not live in slavery. as a one, they died, and the redmen cast out their bodies, not even eating them, for to the redmen the realpeople were unclean and rancid.

but grandmother spider was ready. that night she wove her star net anew and captured all of the souls of the realpeople, and before dawn, she tore down the web and took all the souls into the underground, where she lived. then she awoke River and Rainbow, the twins, and appointed them to watch over the world.

and so they did. many men came: whitemen with blackslaves who would not die, these came and warred and killed the redmen. in their wars many would die but no one would eat of them – they seemed to know that their own fleshis poison and wrong. later, yellowmen came, and brownmen, and all other colors, and Rainbow knew that his time had come. from the wars of the coloredmen there came a generation of children who were dirt-colored, of the earth, of all the colors and none. the coloredmen did not want these children, which were dirty and wild, because they had already made slaves of each other. the dirty children were no use as slaves, as they were young and weak, and they were ugly and not Colored, so they were cast out and left to die. Secretly, Rainbow blessed these dirty children, because he knew they would be the new fathers and mothers of the Realpeople.

and so the children grew, like rats in a house of men, ignored but tolerated. and then, when the time had come again, Grandmother Spider released her web of souls, bit by bit, so that the realpeople could come again into the world. the realpeople, who had been hunted and enslaved and exterminated and forgotten, would be born anew in these cast off dirty-children.

one day when all the children had been born, and the realpeople lived anew, River saw that in their dirtiness one could no longer tell Redmen from Blackmen from Yellowmen from Whitemen from Brownmen. so she took these dirty children and washed them an lo! they were seen anew. the children saw the Reds and Whites and Blacks and Browns and Yellows of their fathers and mothers and grandmothers, and they saw the colors of Rainbow, the watcher over of the realpeople. when the River washed away the dirt, the children were all the infinite colors of the Rainbow, each one special and unique.

rainbowmen know each other in certain ways, for despite their rearing among the ColoredMen, they have the souls of the realpeople, and GrandmotherSpider’s taboo remains. the rainbowmen should not kill and eat other animals, nor even the Coloredmen, whose meat is poison. when they do eat the meat of other animals, it sickens them and they grow fat and weak.those rainbowmen who never follow their taboo become powerful and wicked though very unhappy.

in the now above world, the ColoredMen rule as they always have. they have divided themselves from the animals, and then set about to divide themselves from each other. there is no end to this killing, and all the meat is waste for the flesh of coloredmen is poison. the other animals are silent and afraid, never attacking and eating even one of the coloredmen,but nevertheless, the coloredmen still come and kill them type by type,with great wasting of meat. it is not that they are hungry that they do this thing, but that they are mad and ill made and cannot help themselves.

so the realpeople came to walk again the world as the rainbowmen. when a Coloredman saw a rainbow man, he would see only what he wished to see:himself, and thus the realpeople could move freely through the world,knowing each other but unknown to the coloredmen

and so, in secret, the realpeople came again to ask spiderwoman what to do.only now, spiderwoman was weak from the attacks of the coloredmen, for they saw her as a danger to them that they could not tolerate, regardless of her intent, so they hunted her to ends of the earth. at last, two of the dreamers of the real people, raven and coyote, remembered the tales told by Rainbow and River, and they sought out grandmother spider in her lair underground. she was weak and sick and all around her lay the bodies of the coloredmen she had defeated.

by then grandmother spider was confused and weakened and she said to Raven, call your wife, the Moonwoman, and have her call her father, the all-devourer to come into my lair and help me eat this meat. upon hearing this Raven and Coyote were very afraid, for they knew the meat of the coloredmen to be poison, and if any of the animals ate of it, the coloredmen would come and kill all of that type of animal. this had already happened many times, so that the sabretooths and the cavebears and direwolves were all dead. and so, Coyote took his wife Rabbit and slew her and said, here is the meat of another animal, and it is good, as it was in the days before. but spiderwoman was old and testy and would not have it – she said that the Rabbit meat was old and white and dry, and that she would have instead some of the fat and juicy coloredmen. thus, weeping openly, Raven and Coyote took the meat of Rabbit, who was Coyote’s beloved wife, and ate her, thus breaking the taboo.

Raven and Coyote thought their sin would be such that Spiderwoman would forget about the meat of the coloredmen, and for a while it did – Raven and Coyote were cast out from the realpeople and made to walk naked in the world of coloredmen, who saw them and hunted them for a while.

Nevertheless, spiderwoman called to the daughterinlaw of Raven, who was the moonwoman, who til this time has remained hidden in the underground. she said – your husband and brotherinlaw have gone and now the taboo is broken,and so there is much too much meat for us to eat. let us not be like the coloredmen and waste it, you, moonwoman, go and call to your father the all-devourer to come my lair and help me eat up this meat.

now moonwoman was very afraid, and she knew not what to do. wise raven and brother husband coyote were gone, and she was alone. so, fearing that spiderwoman would die regardless, moonwoman went out into the night sky and called her father, the all-devourer, and said – my other grandmother bids you come and feast, she will await you in her lair. then did moonwoman flee, making herself invisible as fast as she could, for she feared the terrible old man who was her father.

now, with moonwoman gone, grandmotherspider was alone and so she bade Raven and Coyote to return to her lair. soon she would eat the meat of the coloredmen, and all taboos would be broken, and all would be forgiven. and so they came, quaking with fear, for they had heard the cry of moonwoman.raven flew into the underworld, and the all-devourer could not follow him,but Coyote walked on his four legs, and left tracks, and by this means the all-devourer came to the lair of spiderwoman.

and so, though moonwoman fled the lair of grandmother spider and feared her father’s coming, she was with child and late, so she ran to river and river hid her. there, under the water, two children of the realpeople were born,and moonwoman named them Morning Star and Star-Axis. as soon as they were born, moonwoman took them into the sky and threw them far away, for she knew the appetite of her father and that he was coming. as moonwoman fled across the sky, she wept, saying goodbye to each thing as it were, each mountain and lake and plain, one and all. her tears scattered into the sky and became stars, which further hid her children from their Grandfather’s appetite.

and so spiderwoman bid raven to go out to the edge of the lair and look forher guest’s coming. he did so and came back and pointed to a stone at the edge of the lair. she said – that is but a stone, he is not coming, for now she had regained a little of her mind, and she was frighten by what she had done. and so, raven answered – see the shadow of that stone. at noon, when there should be no shadow, look at that rock. you will see a shadow that will come and grow and swallow all the light and the sky, and when you look up, you will see a tongue of blue flame, for he will have arrived and he will hunger.

and so spiderwoman was afraid, but it was too late: noon had come and the sky grew dark. nevertheless, spiderwoman met the all-devourer and invited him to a feast, showing him the bodies of the coloredmen. raven and coyote thought to trick the old man, and offered him all of the poisoned meat first, as befits a guest, hoping that he would eat of them and die. but the all-devourer did not die, though the meat made him fat and sick and unhappy, still, he laughed and also consumed raven and coyote and then grandmother spider herself fell into his limitless maw.

out in the world the coloredmen ruled and they were prideful and knew no fear of that terrible old man death. when they saw that the all-devourer had eaten the meat of their kind, they came together to make war on him.they brought their weapons and machines and medicines, but most of all they brought their god. they said to themselves, our god has promised us heaven,and though the all-devourer may kill and eat us, our souls will go on and so we will go on fighting him.

now, the all-devourer was interested in the coloredmen. he saw how they had exterminated the animals and made slaves of each other and was pleased.thus, he reasoned, the coloredmen eat the animals and grow strong, go their god eats the coloredmen and grows stronger – the shepherd doesn’t tend his folk from kindness. and so the all-devourer laughed and called to the god, come and feast with me and tell me of your heaven. and so the god came, in pride, thinking the all-devourer desired heaven as did all his coloredmen. but no, the alldevourer tricked the god and ate him and took his place. so now, the coloredmen still murder the animals and call themselves lords of the earth, yet they serve their god and allow him to kill and take them as he wills, for this is a way they can understand. and so the coloredmen came to make war on death, but were tricked, and came to worship that terrible old man, walking freely into his black hole and tongue of blue flame to be consumed entirely.

the rainbowmen, though, knew the all-devourer of old and remembered him,and moreover, they did not eat the meat of the other animals and thus were not worth consuming. they hid themselves, slowly their numbers grew,and thus it is today.

and so the realpeople know that one day their dreamers will come from Venus and Polaris, and they will be strong and they will kill the all-devourer and open him up, but not eat of him. thus everything old will be remade,including grandmother spider and grandfather mantis and river and rainbow and raven and coyote and rabbit and all the others, and the world will be silent,the all-devourer having consumed all his coloredmen. then, after the day that death lies dead, the realpeople and the other animals will talk again, and they will tell the stories of grandmother spider and the all-devourer, so that it may never happen again.

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Will
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Will » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:09 pm

Mara is real, both as our diabolic thoughts, words and deeds and also as external demonic forces.

However I do not think Zoroaster, Rama, Krishna, Moses, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Jesus and other major founders were Mara's followers. (Not sure about Mohamet.)

But over time many individual followers, like most human beings, were and are often dancing to Mara's frenzied masquerade.

So imperfection is all about us and within us as the first two Noble truths say. Yet, the way out and beyond, is in the latter two - so practice more seriously.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

form
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:42 pm

There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:11 pm

form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
That's an interesting point. Can you (or anyone else) remember which sutta?

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Will
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Will » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:43 pm

form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
I would prefer to see the actual translated quotation. I will guess that 'dhamma' is used, meaning a specific teaching or practice - not an entire religion.

If, on the other hand, an entire religion is meant, it would be saying that criticism is forbidden, period. Every person has some good thoughts or words or deeds, so criticism of that person would also be forbidden.

In anticipation - criticism is not judgement.
Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Nietzsche

form
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
That's an interesting point. Can you (or anyone else) remember which sutta?
In AN, let me go and find it for u.

There are some religions that teaches love and kindness but the founder insist that they are the new cosmic buddha, that I disapprove.

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:25 pm

Will wrote:
form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
I would prefer to see the actual translated quotation. I will guess that 'dhamma' is used, meaning a specific teaching or practice - not an entire religion.

If, on the other hand, an entire religion is meant, it would be saying that criticism is forbidden, period. Every person has some good thoughts or words or deeds, so criticism of that person would also be forbidden.

In anticipation - criticism is not judgement.

form
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:27 pm

form wrote:
Will wrote:
form wrote:There is this saying in the Sutta, if one criticize a religion that teach its followers to be good in conduct, one is creating demerit for himself. After I read that, I do not dare to criticise other religions as long as they have some components that teaches kindness and love.
I would prefer to see the actual translated quotation. I will guess that 'dhamma' is used, meaning a specific teaching or practice - not an entire religion.

If, on the other hand, an entire religion is meant, it would be saying that criticism is forbidden, period. Every person has some good thoughts or words or deeds, so criticism of that person would also be forbidden.

In anticipation - criticism is not judgement.
The word used is probably dhamma as I dun remember seeing the word religion appear in the suttas.

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Aloka
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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by Aloka » Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:31 am

Some interesting comments about Mara from Bhikhu Buddhadasa in "TWO KINDS OF LANGUAGE: Everyday Language & Dhamma language"
MARA
Now we turn to a rather strange word, the word "Mara" (the tempter, the devil). The Mara of everyday language is conceived as a kind of monster with body, face, and eyes of repulsive and terrifying appearance. Mara in Dhamma language, however, is not a living creature but rather any kind of mental state opposed to the good and wholesome and to progress towards the cessation of dukkha. That which opposes and obstructs spiritual progress is called Mara. We may think of Mara as a living being if we wish, as long as we understand what he really stands for.

No doubt you have often heard the story of how Mara came down from the Paranimmitavasavatti realm to confront the Buddha-to-be. This was the real Mara the Tempter. He came down from the highest heaven, the Paranimmitavasavatti realm, which is a heaven of sensual enjoyments of the highest order, a paradise abounding in everything the heart could desire, where someone is always standing by to gratify one's every wish. This is Mara the Tempter, but not the one with the ugly, ferocious countenance and reddened mouth, who is supposed to go around catching creatures to suck their blood. That is Mara as ignorant people picture him. It is the Mara of the everyday language of ignorant people who don't know how to recognize Mara when they see him.

In Dhamma language, the word "Mara" means at worst the heaven known as Paranimmitavasavatti, the highest realm of sensuality. In general it means any mental state opposed to the good and wholesome, opposed to spiritual progress. This is Mara in Dhamma language.

http://www.buddhadasa.com/naturaltruth/ ... uage2.html
I think its also worth looking at SN 22.63:

[At Saavatthii a certain (unnamed) monk came to the Blessed One and said:] "It would be well for me, Lord, if the Blessed One would teach me briefly a doctrine so that having heard it I might dwell alone, in seclusion, unwearied, ardent and resolute."

"Monk, if you cling to anything, you are in bondage to Mara.[1] If you do not cling, you are free of the Evil One."

"I have understood, Blessed One, I have understood, Well-farer!"

"But how, monk, do you understand in full what I have stated in brief?"

"Lord, if one clings to the body, one is in bondage to Mara. If one does not cling to the body, one is free of the Evil One. [Similarly with 'feelings,' 'perceptions,' 'mental formations,' 'consciousness.'] That, Lord, is how I understand in full the sense of what the Blessed One has stated in brief."

"Good, good, monk! You have well understood in full the sense of what I stated in brief. If you cling to the body,... feelings,... perceptions,... mental formations,... consciousness, you are in bondage to Mara. If you do not cling, you are free of the Evil One. That is how the sense of what I have stated in brief is to be understood in full."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
So therefore clinging to the notion that "monotheistic religions are the production of Mara" could be a form of "bondage to Mara" in itself.

:anjali:

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Re: Monotheistic religions are the productions of Mara (Devil)

Post by form » Wed Feb 08, 2017 3:30 pm

As far as I remember, only people go look for the Buddha to debate. He has never looked for people to debate. He said he has no problem with the world, it is the world that has problem with him.

I often wonder why he has never debate with the Jain leader that co exist in his time. And the Jain leader only send his disciples to debate with the buddha, why not himself to do the debate? And is he a naked ascetic?

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