Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by davidbrainerd » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:12 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:Similarly there is no way of knowing if anything you just said is historical at all.
That the Essenes are influenced by Buddhism or Jainism (or perhaps Pythagoreanism which in turn is influenced by one of the former) is very obvious. Judaism doesn't naturally lend itself to monasticism and that a Jewish sect would arise that is both monastic and rejects the animal sacrifices and is pacifist is just not plausible without aquaintance with another such system. This was the point in history where the Jews were encountering Greek culture and through the Greeks other cultures. Its very clear.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:50 pm

cappuccino wrote:Doubt is the opposite of faith, only the latter has value. And it has great value, therefore, doubt is a thief.
Nonsense. Doubt gives faith life; certainty stifles faith.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:57 pm

No, faith is a faculty, that may be strong or weak, and doubt definitely weakens it.

practitioner
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:30 pm

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by practitioner » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:06 pm

Christians cannot defend what I said.

It is a fact that Jesus got angry at the temple.

Galatians 5 plainly states that burst of anger is worldly ways - a sin.

Please defend why Hebrew god was so interested in killing enemies (Plenty of references in Psalms) but suddenly decided to love enemy 500 years after Buddha's teaching. Kill every woman and children of Jewish enemies - that is what is in the Old Testament.

Christians love to evade on these issues.

Why keep telling lies about Christmas Day?

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1925
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:10 pm

cappuccino wrote:No, faith is a faculty, that may be strong or weak, and doubt definitely weakens it.
This faculty of faith is called the noetic faculty in the Christian tradition, and it's seat is the nois, or "heart" in lay discourse.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:25 pm

Righteous anger is fine.

Maybe the violent think god is violent, the peaceful think god is peaceful.
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by davidbrainerd » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:36 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
cappuccino wrote:No, faith is a faculty, that may be strong or weak, and doubt definitely weakens it.
This faculty of faith is called the noetic faculty in the Christian tradition, and it's seat is the nois, or "heart" in lay discourse.
Prove it. Prove this is true of Western Christianity too. And prove that it even matters.

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 3540
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by cappuccino » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:39 pm

As long as we're doubting, I doubt everyone arguing cares about the truth, hence they always need proof.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by davidbrainerd » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:43 pm

cappuccino wrote:As long as we're doubting, I doubt everyone arguing cares about the truth, hence they always need proof.
So to you truth is what is contrary to proof? Did you just finish reading Tertullian and find yourself approving the sentiment "Credo quia absurdum" ("I believe it because its absurd")?

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1925
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:46 pm

davidbrainerd wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:
cappuccino wrote:No, faith is a faculty, that may be strong or weak, and doubt definitely weakens it.
This faculty of faith is called the noetic faculty in the Christian tradition, and it's seat is the nois, or "heart" in lay discourse.
Prove it. Prove this is true of Western Christianity too. And prove that it even matters.
I am busy and can't dedicate the considerable time and effort it takes to solidly disprove your misrepresentations on this thread. Suffice to say, me and iohannes have provided you with many, many, many, references and you have decided to engage only two of them to the best of my knowledge. You have also provided 3 books, 2 of which disprove your more wild allegations on this thread, and an irrelevant quote about the nous from a non-Christian source, as best I can recall currently. If you have provided more sources than this please do prove me wrong, this is simply all I can recall you providing.. Expect a response to your longer posts maybe by Wednesday providing this tragic mess of a thread doesn't get shut down before then.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1925
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:57 pm

practitioner wrote:Either there was a real character that the fictional character Jesus was based on or there isn't any one at all.

Either the real character was enlightened or has been mischaracterized in the gospel as a temperamental person.

It really doesn't matter because it is in the past now. Real or un-real person existed or not, the character in the bible is unreal.

Any decent kind person, even if this person has supernatural power, would not destroy a fig tree that does not bear fruit, especially when it is not supposed to bear fruit. Such temperament of the character in the gospel reveal much about the fictional nature of this book. We know such a character is against the nature of the god described in the NT; therefore, this person is not god at all. He is not even a loving and kind person.

People who love Jesus must be heartless people to want to persecute him only 6 days after showering him with immense love.

For Jesus to know that people do not know what they are doing and want to forgive them, but just 6 days before he seems to know that people know what they are doing and express his utmost anger at the temple and refuse to forgive them is of the utmost ridiculousness of the gospel. Obviously, a fictional character.

At least it has been documented that Jesus was sinful rather than sinless. Burst of anger is burst of anger - no excuses.

God seems to have split personality. In Old Testament, he was all about punishing enemies. Search for keyword "enemy" in the Old Testament, you can find thousands of references.

In New Testament, one probably cannot find the word enemy. If so, only few references. What happened? The all knowing and perfect god was not so perfect that he changed his way. Did Buddha shame this god and forced this god to change his way? 500 years before New Testament, Buddha already condemned animal sacrifices and preached loving kindness for all beings. Buddha stressed the importance of forbearance so that one never bears ill will or anger.

Buddha's teaching was the driving force for New Testament.

No need to argue with Christians. We know the facts. Argument is endless. It only leads the heart to cling to viewpoints and lead into "becoming".

TRUTH never depends on blind faith and encourages investigation, scrutiny, and rational thinking to dissect in so many ways until TRUTH is still there - the TRUTH.

Christianity cannot stand on TRUTH. Christian priests and pastors continue to lie about Christmas Day as the birth of Jesus when they know very well that it is a celebration of the Sun God. Puritans try to be honest and eliminate Christmas in America for this very reason, but they cannot overcome the tendency of Christians to rely on UN-truth.

When will Christians be brave enough to stand up in church and start saying we can no longer lie to our children about Christmas. This will unravel the religion. For Christians, it is the ends that justify the means. The end trumps truth.
There is a series of various Catholic answers, an Russian Orthodox one (OMG the Russians are so antisemitic), a Lutheran answer, and an Anglican answer. I'm not putting these here to argue anything, or to try to convince you that these interpretations are "objectively right" or anything, I'm just putting them here so that you can have access to some of the proper interpretations of the fig tree episode from a few Christian perspectives.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:06 am

Coëmgenu wrote:...
Its not like I'm asking you to prove God exists or prove the Trinity. Proving that nous is a relevant concept in Western Christianity would be really easy if it were indeed a relevant concept. There should be monographs on it like on faith, baptism, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, the church, etc. etc. There should be tons of articles and blogposts on it, and not just the ones mentioning it as a foreign Greek Orthodox or Gnostic concept. There should be a slew of articles from all denominations on nous speaking of it as a concept native to their tradition, if your premise were true. But, there aren't because your premise is false.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23045
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:13 am

cappuccino wrote:No, faith is a faculty, that may be strong or weak, and doubt definitely weakens it.
Only if you believe that it does.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1925
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:33 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:...
Its not like I'm asking you to prove God exists or prove the Trinity. Proving that nous is a relevant concept in Western Christianity would be really easy if it were indeed a relevant concept. There should be monographs on it like on faith, baptism, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, the church, etc. etc. There should be tons of articles and blogposts on it, and not just the ones mentioning it as a foreign Greek Orthodox or Gnostic concept. There should be a slew of articles from all denominations on nous speaking of it as a concept native to their tradition, if your premise were true. But, there aren't because your premise is false.
If I am going to address you at all I would prefer to address every point you bring up systematically. That is why my posts in response to you are overlong. If I am going to go about the business of refuting or arguing a point I am going to do it thoroughly.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

davidbrainerd
Posts: 1011
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Buddhism and Christianity at abayagiri with God and Citta.

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:43 am

Coëmgenu wrote:There is a series of various Catholic answers, an Russian Orthodox one (OMG the Russians are so antisemitic), a Lutheran answer, and an Anglican answer. I'm not putting these here to argue anything, or to try to convince you that these interpretations are "objectively right" or anything, I'm just putting them here so that you can have access to some of the proper interpretations of the fig tree episode from a few Christian perspectives.
My own interpretation of the fig tree incident is that in oral tradition it started as a parable about the Jews as an evil fruitless fig tree being cursed for not bearing the fruit of belief in Jesus. But somehow when the gospels were written this parable is transformed into an actual event in Jesus' life.
Coëmgenu wrote:If I am going to address you at all I would prefer to address every point you bring up systematically. That is why my posts in response to you are overlong. If I am going to go about the business of refuting or arguing a point I am going to do it thoroughly.
I didn't present it as an airtight argument with all the evidence from the church fathers and so on, because, as I said, I don't care which version of Christianity is "original" anymore. I only brought up as much as I did to talk about how Gnosticism is mystical and orthodoxy is not. So you can save yourself some time if you want. I could just as well argue that Jesus was an orthodox rabbi who taught strict adherence to the Torah and Paul paganized Christianity by throwing the Torah out (because the NT is so contradictory that the number of possible scenarios is innumerable). To me, at this point, all that matters is Christianity obviously did not originate in accordance with the orthodox narrative. Which of the 100 possible scenarios is the absolute truth of how it originated is really irrelevant.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 203 guests