Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

auto wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:46 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:39 pm
auto wrote: what you say doesn't say that the soul can't exist
right
soul can multiply itself. Formerly human being can reincarnate as a swarm of frogs. Also soul power can be grown by adding soul to already existing one or rather perhaps gathering a soul what were in the past separated but when found is added to the main one.
You got this from Ven Xuānhuà, didn't you? Maybe you didn't, but he's the only Buddhist teacher I know who teaches this. I recognize this claim, but his example was with a swamp of mosquitos and a field of grass, not with a swarm of (we assume Israelite-pestering) frogs. He teaches a very heterodox Chinese Buddhism on occasion, and this claim possibly builds on natively-incorporated Daoist materials freely inserted into the apocryphal Chinese Śūraṅgamasūtra. Some of these Daoist elements (well, sort of Daoism, sort of just general Chinese religion) include the 魂, or hún, and 魄, or pò. These two varieties of soul-stuffs operate in a five-part soul/mental faculty matrix in traditional Chinese religion. Some of these souls go to the netherworld, one stays in the tombstone to receive oblations, etc.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 4435
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

Coëmgenu wrote: Some of these souls go to the netherworld, one stays in the tombstone to receive oblations, etc.
mere delusion

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

cappuccino wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:14 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Some of these souls go to the netherworld, one stays in the tombstone to receive oblations, etc.
mere delusion
Delusion for sure, but to an ancient Chinese? I am sure they had their sagely ṛṣi-equivalents who would have functioned as a "proof" when people questioned this belief. It has a certain charm to it. Why have a tombstone unless there's a bonafide piece of the deceased's soul inside? Makes you feel guilty to not observe ancestor rites, etc. Very practical for social cohesion and order back in the day. But yes, delusion.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

auto
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:00 pm
auto wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:46 pm
cappuccino wrote:
Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:39 pm


right
soul can multiply itself. Formerly human being can reincarnate as a swarm of frogs. Also soul power can be grown by adding soul to already existing one or rather perhaps gathering a soul what were in the past separated but when found is added to the main one.
You got this from Ven Xuānhuà, didn't you? Maybe you didn't, but he's the only Buddhist teacher I know who teaches this. I recognize this claim, but his example was with a swamp of mosquitos and a field of grass, not with a swarm of (we assume Israelite-pestering) frogs. He teaches a very heterodox Chinese Buddhism on occasion, and this claim possibly builds on natively-incorporated Daoist materials freely inserted into the apocryphal Chinese Śūraṅgamasūtra. Some of these Daoist elements (well, sort of Daoism, sort of just general Chinese religion) include the 魂, or hún, and 魄, or pò. These two varieties of soul-stuffs operate in a five-part soul/mental faculty matrix in traditional Chinese religion. Some of these souls go to the netherworld, one stays in the tombstone to receive oblations, etc.
I didn't. I got it from other source, but that doesn't matter since its secondary idea, as it can be bent as long it doesn't conflict with the main idea.
And when you read internal alchemy text(golden elixir), it is influenced(they say) by budhist materials not the other way around.
.
Nevertheless, the influence of Mahayana Buddhism,
which at that time dominated thought in China, is not
to be underrated. Buddhist sutras are cited time and
again. In our text, indeed, this influence is even greater
than can be assumed to have been the case in the Chin
Tan Chiao in general.
it is later manuscript gone through reforms. But the tradition was around 800 ad.
.
Light is the life of man. The eye is the light of the body, Man is spiritually
reborn out of water and fire, to which must be added
" thought-earth " (spirit), as womb, or tilled field.
--
Chuang
Tzu, scorned all the hocus-pocus of yoga practice, naturehealers,
and seekers after the elixir of life, although he
himself, of course, practised meditation and attained by
means of it that view of unity upon which he founded
his later, intellectually developed system. In Lu Yen,
however, there was a certain faith, a religious trend,
which, stimulated by Buddhism, convinced him of the
illusory quality of all external things, but in a way clearly
different from Buddhism. He seeks, with all his might,
the fixed pole in the whirl of phenomena, where the
adept can attain eternal life, a thought absolutely foreign
to Buddhism, which denies every substantial ego.
.
In the second half of the third
section, explicit reference is made to the method known
as " fixating contemplation " {Chih Kuan), and the latter
is a purely Buddhist method which was practised in the
T'ien T'ai School of Chih K'ai.
.
An unprejudiced reading will bring to notice the fact
that these two sources, Taoism and Buddhism, do not
sufice to cover the whole range of thought: the form
of Confucianism which is based on the / Cking is also
introduced.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:00 pm
You got this from Ven Xuānhuà, didn't you? Maybe you didn't, but he's the only Buddhist teacher I know who teaches this.
Really? I've encountered quite a few. For example, you'll find analogous views espoused by certain Tibetan Buddhists who are strongly influenced by Śāntideva's Bodhicaryāvatāra and who opt for a literal rather than a figurative interpretation of the part where budding Buddhas aspire to become medicines for the sick in times of plague and food for the hungry in times of famine. Lamas who go for literalism teach that advanced bodhisattvas can practise this by opting to reincarnate as a medicinal herb, a field of rice, a row of carrots or whatever.
glānānāmasmi bhaiṣajyaṃ bhaveyaṃ vaidya eva ca |
tadupasthāyakaścaiva yāvadrogāpunarbhavaḥ ||

kṣutpipāsāvyathāṃ hanyāmannapānapravarṣaṇaiḥ |
durbhikṣāntarakalpeṣu bhaveyaṃ pānabhojanam ||

(Bodhicaryāvatāra, ch. III 7-8)
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:03 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 4:00 pm
You got this from Ven Xuānhuà, didn't you? Maybe you didn't, but he's the only Buddhist teacher I know who teaches this.
Really? I've encountered quite a few. For example, you'll find analogous views espoused by certain Tibetan Buddhists who are strongly influenced by Śāntideva's Bodhicaryāvatāra and who opt for a literal rather than a figurative interpretation of the part where budding Buddhas aspire to become medicines for the sick in times of plague and food for the hungry in times of famine. Lamas who go for literalism teach that advanced bodhisattvas can practise this by opting to reincarnate as a medicinal herb, a field of rice, a row of carrots or whatever.
glānānāmasmi bhaiṣajyaṃ bhaveyaṃ vaidya eva ca |
tadupasthāyakaścaiva yāvadrogāpunarbhavaḥ ||

kṣutpipāsāvyathāṃ hanyāmannapānapravarṣaṇaiḥ |
durbhikṣāntarakalpeṣu bhaveyaṃ pānabhojanam ||

(Bodhicaryāvatāra, ch. III 7-8)
I think we are talking about two things, bhante, the generation of emanated bodies by a mahāsattva or a Buddha vs the splitting of a mindstream or the combination of two. For instance, they say Vairocana can appear as medicinal herbs given, as well as the giver of medicinal herbs, and that is maybe what those Tibetans were citing in addition to Ven Śāntideva, the two notions strengthening each other. This is all part of the hyperbolous stressing of the endless ways in which the Buddhas and mahāsattbas teach us and try to help us endlessly, only to fall on deaf ears. It is related to the notion of the "universal door of Avalokiteśvara," that a bodhisatva on the irreversible grounds, or a Buddha for that matter, can manifest for the śaikṣa/sekha numerous experiences with multitudes of seemingly disparate people, from sages to rascals, all of whom have a profound lesson steering the practitioner along the path of accumulation, preparing them to eventually meet with the Buddhadharma in its authentic form. But these emanated bodies are conceived of like "puppets," not independent beings (but this is not observed systematically for special emanated bodies like the Dalai Lama).

It's actually something of a heresy in Tibetan Buddhism for mindstreams themselves to combine or seperate, and we can imagine why: it's one of the sacred lines between Buddhism and Hinduism.

Every now and then someone excessively influenced by Chinese Buddhism with a special focus on vaguely heretical Chinese apocrypha will come onto DharmaWheel posting about becoming a field of grass and the Tibetans (read: Malcolm) are up in arms.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5563
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 7:26 pm
I think we are talking about two things, bhante, the generation of emanated bodies by a mahāsattva or a Buddha vs the splitting of a mindstream or the combination of two.
I see. In that case we actually had a Theravādin who taught the latter: the late and extremely eccentric Phra Suratano (Terry Magness). In his exposition of paṭiccasamuppāda he holds that at death we all get reborn as four. So in this life we're only a quarter of what we used to be.

See (if it interests you) his book Altitude and the Buddhist Perspectives, available from:

https://www.triple-gem.net/phra-terry
“Quadruplicity” - the Norm

It has been customary to interpret the complex structure of dependent-origination only in the context of a single stream of life, pursuing its course from the past into the present and on into the future. Never has it dawned upon Abhidhammic scholars to recognize the linkage as a fourfold-complex, held together by the organism during life, but fracturing into distinct streams at death. It is from this “quadruplicity” that the Buddhist analysis of split-personality (anattā) derives its significance and impact, without which it would be nothing but an unintelligible claim, deteriorating into mere meaningless reiteration.

In the fourfold personality-complex the first stream represents the antecedent basic character with all its rebirth experiences intact, structured and conditioned by the remote past. This is what is sometimes referred to as the pāramī-self, the self of character-formation, the syndrome whereby an individual is recognized to be by ‘nature’ charitable, moral, frugal, wise, energetic, patient, truthful, resolute, compassionate, and calm, qualities which are never exhausted by repeated rebirth. Although much becomes expended in life's passage, the individual character of this stream and its manner of reacting to stimuli basically remain. The second, third and fourth streams, however, are the effluvia of the present existence, conditioned by the socio-environmental complex. With the second stream consciousness in embryo evolves with all its early trappings. The third stream represents the developed ego, with all the arrogance and identification it projects towards the environmental context. The sleeping self is the fourth stream, with all its reflex portfolio of delusions and dreams.
(Vistas, 12)
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 2287
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Coëmgenu »

There are also mind, body, and speech tulkus, for when multiple tulkus of a single teacher get announced. AFAIK they are controversial, but this gossip is again mostly just from DharmaWheel and Malcolm.
savi saghara aṇica di, savi saghara dukha di, savi dhama aṇatva di: yada paśadi cakhkṣuma tada nivinadi dukha eṣo mago viśodhia. ||| "All formations are inconstant," he said. "All formations are stressful," he said. "All phenomena are selfless," he said. When one sees this, one becomes adverse to stress, and this is the path of purity. ||| (Gāndhārī Dharmapada fragments)

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 2127
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by confusedlayman »

if soul is there, where it come from? if its from universal brahma then where did brahma come from? if soul is from formless creator, how formless creator create form soul? if soul is formless, how can i attach to form body? if soul is moving from one birth to another, why work on training the mind? if soul has different eye, why one cant see when body eyes closed? if soul takes rebirth why it takes rebirth? if soul is unchanging and permanent, why soul belivers cry when loved ones die? if soul is pure, then whats the use of gaining enlightment ? if soul is unchanging, how can it be created in first place from brahma or formless? if soul is unchanging then there shouldbt be different in heaven or hell or earth or animal or ghost... if one takes soul exist position he will be ridiculated and face with inconsistancty with other views. hence one should not take things exist, dont exist, neither not, both positioon at the same time one should not evade by not giving other views too.
You can become king of world with all the wealth but it is not equal to 0.1 % of jhana pleasure...

auto
Posts: 1624
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by auto »

confusedlayman wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:36 am
if soul is there, where it come from? if its from universal brahma then where did brahma come from? if soul is from formless creator, how formless creator create form soul? if soul is formless, how can i attach to form body? if soul is moving from one birth to another, why work on training the mind? if soul has different eye, why one cant see when body eyes closed? if soul takes rebirth why it takes rebirth? if soul is unchanging and permanent, why soul belivers cry when loved ones die? if soul is pure, then whats the use of gaining enlightment ? if soul is unchanging, how can it be created in first place from brahma or formless? if soul is unchanging then there shouldbt be different in heaven or hell or earth or animal or ghost... if one takes soul exist position he will be ridiculated and face with inconsistancty with other views. hence one should not take things exist, dont exist, neither not, both positioon at the same time one should not evade by not giving other views too.
..withdrawn in body(kāya) and mind(citta). But there is also third thing which is internal.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. And they have internally given up and stilled desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening.
“Evameva kho, bhāradvāja, ye hi keci samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā kāyena ceva cittena ca kāmehi vūpakaṭṭhā viharanti, yo ca nesaṃ kāmesu kāmacchando kāmasneho kāmamucchā kāmapipāsā kāmapariḷāho so ca ajjhattaṃ suppahīno hoti suppaṭippassaddho, opakkamikā cepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā vedanā vedayanti, bhabbāva te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya. No cepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā opakkamikā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā vedanā vedayanti, bhabbāva te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya.
that internal is ajjhatta, now if you put that word into sanskrit,
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhatta wrote:ajjhattaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Ajjhatta,(adj. -n.) [cp. Sk. adhyātma,cp. attā],that which is personal,subjective,arises from within (in contrast to anything outside,objective or impersonal); as adv. & °interior,personal,inwardly (opp. bahiddhā bāhira etc. outward,outwardly); Cp. ajjhattika & see Dhs. trsl. 272. ‹-› D.I,37 (subjective,inward,of the peace of the 2nd jhāna)
adhyātma

"Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision," -

You really can't say there isn't anything else besides feeling or seeing, there is also internal which consist word ātma. The things you are saying in your quote are for people who not understand internal, there is prolly no way to point it out to a materialist, since it can't be pointed out as here look this is ātma, subjective is different.

Also notice, perhaps jhāna is subjective too.

User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 2127
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm

Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by confusedlayman »

auto wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 11:56 am
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun May 17, 2020 8:36 am
if soul is there, where it come from? if its from universal brahma then where did brahma come from? if soul is from formless creator, how formless creator create form soul? if soul is formless, how can i attach to form body? if soul is moving from one birth to another, why work on training the mind? if soul has different eye, why one cant see when body eyes closed? if soul takes rebirth why it takes rebirth? if soul is unchanging and permanent, why soul belivers cry when loved ones die? if soul is pure, then whats the use of gaining enlightment ? if soul is unchanging, how can it be created in first place from brahma or formless? if soul is unchanging then there shouldbt be different in heaven or hell or earth or animal or ghost... if one takes soul exist position he will be ridiculated and face with inconsistancty with other views. hence one should not take things exist, dont exist, neither not, both positioon at the same time one should not evade by not giving other views too.
..withdrawn in body(kāya) and mind(citta). But there is also third thing which is internal.
https://suttacentral.net/mn100/en/sujato wrote:“In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who live withdrawn in body and mind from sensual pleasures. And they have internally given up and stilled desire, affection, infatuation, thirst, and passion for sensual pleasures. Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision, of supreme awakening.
“Evameva kho, bhāradvāja, ye hi keci samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā kāyena ceva cittena ca kāmehi vūpakaṭṭhā viharanti, yo ca nesaṃ kāmesu kāmacchando kāmasneho kāmamucchā kāmapipāsā kāmapariḷāho so ca ajjhattaṃ suppahīno hoti suppaṭippassaddho, opakkamikā cepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā vedanā vedayanti, bhabbāva te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya. No cepi te bhonto samaṇabrāhmaṇā opakkamikā dukkhā tibbā kharā kaṭukā vedanā vedayanti, bhabbāva te ñāṇāya dassanāya anuttarāya sambodhāya.
that internal is ajjhatta, now if you put that word into sanskrit,
http://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/ajjhatta wrote:ajjhattaPTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Ajjhatta,(adj. -n.) [cp. Sk. adhyātma,cp. attā],that which is personal,subjective,arises from within (in contrast to anything outside,objective or impersonal); as adv. & °interior,personal,inwardly (opp. bahiddhā bāhira etc. outward,outwardly); Cp. ajjhattika & see Dhs. trsl. 272. ‹-› D.I,37 (subjective,inward,of the peace of the 2nd jhāna)
adhyātma

"Regardless of whether or not they feel painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings due to overexertion, they are capable of knowledge and vision," -

You really can't say there isn't anything else besides feeling or seeing, there is also internal which consist word ātma. The things you are saying in your quote are for people who not understand internal, there is prolly no way to point it out to a materialist, since it can't be pointed out as here look this is ātma, subjective is different.

Also notice, perhaps jhāna is subjective too.
im not materialist. i know for sure karma is true by personal expeirence.
You can become king of world with all the wealth but it is not equal to 0.1 % of jhana pleasure...

Post Reply