Soul theories and the Dhamma

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SamKR
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SamKR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:25 am

cappuccino wrote:self, would be conforming with eternalism
There is a version of "Self" which is not eternalism.
cappuccino wrote:no self, would be conforming with annihilationism
There is a version of "No self" which is not annihilationism.
cappuccino wrote:all phenomena are not-self
True. But in my opinion practice based on "no self" (without wrong view of annihilationism) is a good approach (because then it is the same as "not-self" approach).

:namaste:
Last edited by SamKR on Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:29 am

Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

SamKR
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SamKR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:40 am

cappuccino wrote:Alternatives to the Ananda sutta?
Not alternative to Ananda sutta. But an alternative meaning of the word "self" used in "Ananda sutta". The whole confusion regarding "self" and "no self" arises because of spectrum of meaning of this single word. In the context of Ananda sutta "self" has its specific meaning.

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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 26, 2017 2:48 am

self
noun
1.
a person's essential being that distinguishes them from others, especially considered as the object of introspection or reflexive action.

synonyms: ego, I, oneself, persona, person, identity

SamKR
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by SamKR » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:10 am

Unfortunately, that is just one meaning out of many. There are many meanings and definitions; for example Upanishads have their own definitions of "Self" which are usually completely different from the above meaning.

chownah
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by chownah » Thu Jan 26, 2017 6:08 am

Twilight wrote:Yes, because anihilationist believe that there is a self that gets destroyed. While Buddha says there never was a self to begin with. And that is why there is another passage just after the one that you have quoted in the same sutta to further clarify things to make sure nobody misinterprets the sutta:
"And if I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used to have now not exist?'"
:goodpost:
This is a good statement of what I think anihilatinism is all about. Just like twilight says, "there never was a self to begin with"....you can't anihilate something which does not exist and that is why anihilatinism is a wrong view.

chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Thu Jan 26, 2017 4:19 pm

annihilationism is the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness

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Twilight
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by Twilight » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:26 pm

cappuccino wrote:annihilationism is the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness
:goodpost:
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

chownah
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by chownah » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:05 am

cappuccino wrote:annihilationism is the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness
This is only one of many applicatoins of annihilationism. It can be applied to anything where one sees a self with consciousness being just one of many.
chownah

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cappuccino
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Re: Soul theories and the Dhamma

Post by cappuccino » Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:53 pm

The Blessed One would never say that on the dissolution of the body the saint who has lost all depravity is annihilated,
perishes, and does not exist after death.

Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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